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Wow and flutter, etc. Tape Speed Issues - Tone Poet / Blue Note 80th anniversary vinyl LP problems.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by StevenTounsand, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. O.k., thanks for the explanation.

    Of course, I can hear it on the "Black Fire" samples. I am just playing my copy and am recording it, I will see if it is also that bad as on the posted samples.

    On the "Chant" sample, at around 4:40, when the one piano note rings out, it sounds a bit wonky to me on both samples. It sounds to me the piano is a bit out of tune, perhaps. It might sound a tad more wonky on the BN80 release, but is not stable on the original either, I would say. I will check again my Heavenly Sweetness copy.

    I only ever listen to samples on high quality headphones.
     
  2. I just listened to my recording of the Heavenly Sweetness copy of "Chant", and at the 4:40 time mark of "You're Next" (the single piano note), it sounds less wonky to me compared to both posted samples.
     
    nosliw likes this.
  3. My copy also has the same issue (as expected), and about the same magnitude, I would say. Didn't sound any less wonky, in other words. I have the 75th Anniversary vinyl release, but I doesn't sound like that. But that has already been established, I am sure.
     
    jon9091 likes this.
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I used to think this too, but I don't anymore.

    1) Experience. I've had to return records that were pressed off-center and managed to get a "good" copy after one or more returns. These were all part of the same run.

    2) A few years I had a discussion with a pressing plant manager and he explained this is the not the case. I don't remember all the details, but in the old days if a stamper was punched wrong (the center hole), every record made from that stamper would be off center. Today, the problem is different. You can have a pressing machine where perfect or near perfect stampers are set up on it and properly aligned on the machine. Then, over time, as that press runs and pumps out records, the stampers become misaligned. Then you have a record that is off center on at least one side.
     
    nosliw, Tom Campbell, jon9091 and 2 others like this.
  5. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Thanks for trying to participate in a substantive discussion even though you don't perceive the issue. I also use a 0.286" reamer and try to make sure everything is centered. My turntable is one of those belt drives, so it does have speed variations. For me, the curious thing is that two different pressings of the same album that have both had the holes reamed and look equally-centered sound radically different when played 2 minutes apart. One sounds "normal" and the other has pitch variations just like some of the other Tone Poet releases. That type of comparison seems to eliminate many of the variables you [correctly] raise with playback.
     
    jon9091, Vic Trola and patient_ot like this.
  6. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    It's on Una Mas as well.

    Not nearly as bad but the piano is definitely shaky at times.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  7. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    The Tone Poet Chant is on Tidal, so a listen there would confirm it's not a cutting issue for that album.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  8. Marko K

    Marko K Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU, Estonia
    I cant hear any difference, besides some additional clicks on the MMJ pressing. I think Kevin and Joe cant either, the tapes are probably just futzed and we can put this topic to rest, haha
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2019
  9. Well some people are apparently hearing issues. I also don't hear any real differences between those two. And now Una Mas? I don't hear one problem on that record either.

    I probably should stay out of this thread and just enjoy all these records, but to be honest, I keep chiming in because I don't want folks to be discouraged and stay away from these great records. I've read some here say they will cancel and order a title based on some of these comments. That's tragic IMHO. Listen for yourself and if you don't like what you hear, then return or trade away. There are many salivating for these records.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2019
  10. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Tragic?

    Blue Note is owned by UMG. In 2018 UMG had revenue of over 7 billion dollars.
     
    recstar24 likes this.
  11. trumpetplayer

    trumpetplayer Forum Resident

    Location:
    michigan
    Tim1954 I think Mazzy meant it’s tragic that people will miss out on this reissue
     
    Bryce, timzigs and Marko K like this.
  12. Yes that’s exactly what I mean. I couldn’t care less about the parent labels financial situation.
     
    trumpetplayer likes this.
  13. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Just in case anyone reading this isn't familiar with what an off-center pressing looks like, I remembered my Introducing Johnny Griffin SRX has a perfect side 1 and an off-center side 2. Here's a video of what that looks like:



    Note that [even though the camera isn't perfectly steady] you can see the finger lift on the headshell move in relation to the silver and black parts of the turntable deck. You can also see the grooves themselves move as the record goes around.

    Whatever sonic effects are caused by this eccentricity is different than the "whammy bar piano" people are describing here.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  14. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    Ok, so because you don’t hear (or mind) the defect, you don’t mind recommending them? But, what if you did hear it? What if you thought they sounded awful? Would you still be recommending them, or would you tell people to go look for earlier pressings?
     
    Mazzy, Kimiimacman and patient_ot like this.
  15. Kimiimacman

    Kimiimacman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lost
    Me too
     
    Vic Trola and patient_ot like this.
  16. We all can only recommend a record based on our personal experiences. There are certainly records or pressings I’ve disliked and said so here and out in the real physical world. The MoFi of Layla is one I really don’t care for but others seem to enjoy it. So like you ask, that’s one record where I suggest folks look to earlier pressings.

    And yes, original Bluenotes are fantastic but sound vary different than all these new ones. So because of the richer sound and cost, I would suggest most folks buy these new ones unless they stumble on originals at decent prices .

    I’ve recommended these TP releases to many folks I know personally as well as followers of my Vinyl Community YouTube Channel. I’ve watched countless VC members shows off their TP buys and so far not one has mentioned any speed issues. Maybe some folks do have issues out there but so far I’ve yet to hear other people diss them. Even the so called jazz experts and writers are praising this series. Would be interested in Fremer’s take.

    Of course most out there are not audiophile types. But they seem to love these releases. Especially Cornbread, ETC, Black Fire and Chant. And most of us novices aren’t comparing pressings or other versions.

    So it seems the more astute audiophile types are the majority who are hearing these tape issues. You are the ones comparing pressings, CDs and files. And I get that’s a big part of what this forum is about.

    All our opinions and experiences are only our own. And none is more correct than the other. But when there is a collection of records that i personally have found to be above average in almost every way, I’m going to defend and promote the hell out of them.

    Folks can read all of our comments then make a decision. Or better yet, listen for themselves and then keep or return the record.
     
  17. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Let me ask you please:

    Have you ever had an lp that has that bit of off centering and it not have any affect on the sonics?

    Anyone else?
     
    Jam757 and Mazzy like this.
  18. Kimiimacman

    Kimiimacman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lost
    /
    That’s an excellent point you make. From my perspective as a ‘believer’ I need to know which discs in these two series are displaying this issue; it’s of absolutely no use to me being told ‘it’s great’ by anyone who can’t hear it (this is a dedicated thread on this issue is it not and not the general TP thread that so many got so animated about and insisted we start a new thread)
    I’m not a huge fan of Hub Tones TBH based on multiple listens on Tidal but was considering maybe giving it a go seeing as Tidal often puts me off some titles only to be proven wrong after reading excellent posts here or indeed taking a punt. But even listening on my iPhone X to the clips above I’m no way going to bother now as I’m somewhat pissed by these wonky pianos to say the least; none of my MM, Mofi or evening Rhino AAAs have this. I shall NOT be preordering anymore titles that have piano for sure and will await posts here for the ‘all-clear’. Shame really as otherwise they are truly great.
    Finally, here our host posted a while back;
    Restored vinyl cutting system at Marsh Mastering, Scully/Westrex. Amazing sounding vinyl mastering!

    “Astonishing sound and the lacquers cut are clean, easy to track and distortion free. Audiophiles watch out, there is a new vinyl mastering studio in town! Trust me, it sounds amazing. I hope to be doing all of my vinyl projects at Marsh Mastering from now on.”

    :shh:
     
  19. p.analogowy

    p.analogowy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warsaw PL
    How bad is it on Una Mas?
     
  20. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    This one definitely sounded off when I first played it and that's when I noticed the tonearm and the off-centered pressing. Ron Rambach also heard it and sent me a replacement. The point I was trying to make is that the sound of this record being off-center is different than the sound the pitch bending on the piano. The pitch variation I hear on the piano on some of these records happens much more quickly than the off-center wow.
     
    Vic Trola and patient_ot like this.
  21. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Here's the piano solo on Lover Man from Introducing Johnny Griffin. There are three versions: my way off-center MMJ SRX, my on-center replacement MMJ SRX, and the BN80. I know what I hear but I'm curious to hear others' thoughts. These must have been done within a year of each other, right?

    Off-center SRX
    On-center SRX
    Blue Note 80

    I did not mix up the off-center and "good" SRX files
     
    p.analogowy and patient_ot like this.
  22. struttincool

    struttincool Senior Member

    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    Here's my take so far on Tone Poet.
    Bought 12, returned 4 and the Corea title is the next to go. That's 5 out of 12 that have serious issues.
    I've been buying jazz reissues for a long time. First was Classic Records (Verve, Blue Note, etc.), then Analogue Productions (Contemporary, Verve, Blue Note, Prestige, etc.), Speakers Corner and a half dozen others totaling 500 give or take.

    I put Tone Poet's lack of quality right up there with the Classic Records 200 gram fiasco.

    Very mediocre series so far.
     
  23. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    FWIW, it has been identified in this thread that older versions of the Corea have the same tape issues.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  24. struttincool

    struttincool Senior Member

    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    fine, wish I had known that ahead of time
     
    Harrison and patient_ot like this.
  25. p.analogowy

    p.analogowy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warsaw PL
    They all sound wobbly to me! The BN80 is the worst, as far as I can tell.
     

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