XTC - Oranges & Lemons Blu-ray - clarification

I have one of these Netgear WNCE2001 adapters attached to every piece of equipment I have that lacks built in WiFi but has an Ethernet connection, all work flawlessly.

http://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-WNCE2001-Universal-Internet-Adapter/dp/B007CO5DZ4

 

I'm getting the black screen after the Ape House Logo. Using a PS3 system software version 4.76. Both Drums and Wires and Nonsuch work fine. Has it been explained what make Oranges and Lemons different from these previous releases?

 

Yep, pretty much the same -- black screen after Ape logo, won't play on PS3 or XBox 1. On the other hand, my copies of both "Drums and Wires" and "Nonsvch" will play on both platforms. Blaming both the "firmware" and Sony seems to be sleight of hand...but who knows?

Perhaps Sony will be able to fix this, a la any new video game with bugs and the attendant downloads/patches. Perhaps after the fuss blows over Burning Shed sends us all codes/patches/new discs to make up for the snafu. Or maybe we just don't ever order anything from Burning Shed again?

 

I am very sorry but this type of post doesn't help at all. In the first instance, the accusation of "sleight of hand" is not only inaccurate but highly offensive - you cannot even begin to imagine how much effort went into not only creating these discs ion the first place but also since then trying to get PS3 and Xbox support happening on something that is - and I will repeat this again - not an authoring issue and is absolutely nothing at all to do with Burning Shed, who are probably the finest online retailer out there and they really do care about support. To blame them is at best ignorance or at worst sophistry and is utterly disingenuous.

Have you taken a look at the PS3 support forums at all lately, and seen the sheer number of people having all sorts of issues with loading Blu-ray discs into these devices? The list really is rather lengthy and whilst I was going to post a list of titles that are having the same issues on PS3 and Xbox, this would be unreasonable of me in exactly the same way it is unreasonable to blame Burning Shed for this issue. For now suffice it to say that almost every title having problems in PS3 loads in a proper Blu-ray player with no trouble at all - and a quick look on the PS3 forums shows 34 pages of issues with the search term "Blu-ray discs not loading" and whilst some of these are older titles (the list really is extremely lengthy) a common "solution" seems to be (and this is a direct quotation from PS3 forums)

Other common "solutions" to loading problems often seem to be related to internet connections, and I have my suspicions as to why that is the case but I say again we are working with both Sony and Microsoft to get a fix for this and the latest from Sony is that the matter is with their technical people in Japan - as soon as I get more news and/or information then you can rest assured I will be sharing it.

The discs themselves are BD-J style, and the symptoms described are absolutely consistent with the consoles in question refusing to load the Java set of the disc (the first playlist is outside the Java) which is telling us these consoles are assuming for some reason that the code is either missing, has been tampered with or is malicious and the way these discs are set up to operate if it was an authoring issue they would not load on anything at all, period. Additionally if the discs were off specification then they would have been rejected by the factory when they ran their Eclipse check before replication and I can assure you replication plants take an almost child like pleasure in tossing things back for the slightest reason, in some cases when there are no actual playability issues at all (and yes, I can provide absolute proof of that statement).
Additionally, the same disc also plays just fine in the PS4 (not to mention the newer Sony set top players), and Sony tell me that this is not surprising because the PS4 is a different machine "from the ground up" and you can draw from that what you will. Moreover, the way consoles work is not the same as a set top player - these are games consoles designed to work online and the "Blu-ray player" is an app - this means it is an emulator - and software players are all emulators to some degree and again a quick look on any software player support forum again gets me a long list of problematic titles. Why this is happening now is of course the $64,000 question and if code is blocking these discs from loading then more code (or better code) will allow playback.

Blu-ray is still being developed. There is no such thing as final Blu-ray specifications, AACS DRM is mandatory and is also constantly changing and whilst I personally do not think that AACS is to blame at this point, it does cause issues with almost all software players and the vast majority of soft players also have trouble with BD-J for one reason or another and it really is important to bear in mind that these are games consoles in the first instance and BD players as an afterthought with playback handled by an app which is a software emulator. I have suspicions & have speculated privately with our Java programmer as to what the issue may be but right now that is all I have - suspicions & speculations, and until we hear back from the manufacturers there is very little more I can do apart from suggest trying a set top player instead of a games console.

 

Has anyone managed to get it to play on a PC BDROM drive. With Jriver I get an error message that says it can't load audio splitter. I've never seen this before. With Total Media Theatre I just get a blank screen. :/

 

No luck with Mac Blu-Ray Player on Mid-2014 15" Macbook with Retina Display running Yosemite.

 

Neil --

I am very sorry to beg to differ, but "this type of post" did help in eliciting what certainly appears (at this point) to be the longest, most detailed explanation from your perspective as to why the blu ray disc isn't working, at least on PS3/Xbox 1 platforms. I joined this forum after reading the link sent to me by Burning Shed and saw that many other people were having said issue -- I did NOT come here to be a provocateur. But again, sincerely -- thanks for the response.

I'm not a programmer and I don't write code, hence the ignorance (which you've partially alleviated). I'm would like to think that I'm not a sophist -- I mean really, does anyone like those guys? Whew. I certainly did not mean to insult you personally or your profession and dedication thereto with my "accusation" of sleights of hand...but as you yourself have your own "suspicions and speculations" vis a vis others and said proprietary concerns, I hope you can forgive me for wondering about corporate bureaucratic posterior-covering, profit margins (slight as they may be in this age of digital piracy), the horse already out of the barn, etc. At least abstractly?

I would also like to suppose that I'm not a person who "cannot even begin to imagine how much effort went into not only creating these discs ion (sic) the first place but also since then trying to get PS3 and Xbox support happening..." I think that I can cogitate about the previously described effort, if even just a tiny bit...perhaps you do as well, otherwise why explain?

What I do know, however, is that I'm a consumer who purchased a moderately expensive pre-recorded/programmed product, half of which DOES NOT WORK in the 2 devices in this household which ordinarily will play the format. I'm puzzled by this, as the only other two blu ray discs I own ("Drums and Wires" & "Nonsvch," funnily enough) play perfectly and I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of purchasing a "standalone" device much less a PS4 just to attempt to play 1 particularly stubborn relative, now matter how fabulous the actual album. (An aside, a question-begging -- if there are such problems with blu ray, why was it chosen?)

Regarding your dealings with Sony and Microsoft in the business realm, I can only begin to possess an inkling...but as just a sophistic, disingenuous ignoramus who buys ephemera it might should be relayed that I'm typing this on a crappy discontinued VAIO and staring at an Xbox 360 (returned how many times?) not to mention an Xbox 1 that necessitates a paper clip for disc ejection -- who knew? So again I beg your forgiveness for being just a tad, just a bit, oh I dunno, suspicious...? Just a little bit skeptical when it comes to things not working as they should? No?

Speculatively yours --

Fanil

 

Oh, I forgot about that! Me too! lol

 

Same with me (having them all), and I've never experienced any difficulties - including this one. It's very strange so many folks are having troubles. I have a Sony blu-ray player, too...

 

Sorry to hear about all the problems..plays fine on my Oppo 103D

 

I should add that Mac Blu-Ray Player did have a message when I tried to open the disc that the software is still being developed, so not all Blu-Rays will play on it. In fact, I previously had a problem with a movie I wanted to watch on the Macbook.

The disc has played perfectly on my Oppo BDP-103.

 

Burning Shed has a two week window for claiming issues with a product for return. If the only definitive answer to the problem at this point is to try playing it on something else, then I'll have to send it back.

 

I'm sure that in this case, Burning Shed would work with you if you want to send it back later than 2 weeks. Have you even asked? It sounds to me like they are working hard on this issue. I doubt they wouldn't accept your return because of some technicality.

So far, they are handling this issue really well.

 

I haven't yet asked, but I will. It's in my nature to expect a technicality like that to happen anywhere, so I'm just making sure I'm following the rules on my end.

 

They are handling it, I guess, but they still haven't explained why the previous XTC blu rays play on my Sony BDP-S350 and this one doesn't.

That's the crux of the matter, I think. Something was done differently with this blu ray and they're not admitting it.

 

I think they did.

@neil wilkes , can you clarify?

 

Oranges and Lemons arrived in last nights post and it's currently playing just fine on my Sony BDP-S390...I've navigated throughout the various content and no problems.

The Burning Shed support e-mail that arrived yesterday stated that the playback issues many are experiencing with O&L will likely affect the upcoming Yes-Fragile bluray.

 

The Blu-ray plays perfectly fine on my Oppo 103 player. Since I have a PS3 (fat version with SACD capability), a PS4, and an Xbox One, I'll try it on those devices over the weekend and post back here.

 

My copy of XTC Oranges and Lemons won't play in my BluRay , which is an Insignia NS-WBRDVD2.

Thanks

 

As a result of this debacle, I've just about talked my wife into getting an Oppo to replace both our Sony blu-ray player *AND* our Denon "universal" (except for blu-ray) player.

It was my plan to do this in the next year or so anyway, as the Denon "universal" player hasn't been handling any DVD-Audio discs for at least a year now.

This experience is going to discourage me from ever buying Sony in the future, though. (You'd have thought I'd learned my lesson way back in the early '90s, when I foolishly thought I was upgrading a Denon receiver with a Sony receiver ... Sold the Denon, bought the Sony, hooked it up and ... cried at how awful it sounded. Sold the Sony a few weeks later for a loss, then bought ... something else - maybe a Yamaha? Anyway, after many years of not buying Sony, I broke down and bought a Sony blu-ray player on impulse when I bought a Samsung plasma TV ... the salesperson at Sears was tossing it in for a deep discount to entice me to buy the TV. Another regrettable Sony purchase. Never again?)

Craig.

 

So these blurays are BD-J and the previous XTC's are not? Why did they change the style of their blurays?

Whatever, the point is they will not play on certain BD players. My player, though old, has played everything I've thrown at it except this disc. Since Nonsuch worked, I expected Oranges & Lemons to work also. I'm not about to screw around and try to update my firmware (and possibly brick my player).

Look, I'm not extremely pissed off at this but loading or not loading Java content is way above my pay scale. Sooner or later, I'll have to get a new bluray player and hopefully then I'll finally get to hear the 5.1 content. If I buy the right player. With the correct firmware. Until then, I'll reconcile myself to having paid $32 for a CD. Which does sound very good, by the way.

 

I finally got the BD working on my pc with the help of AnyDVD HD. Once AACS protection is removed all problems seem to disappear I may have stumbled across an error though, it appears the original album mix has been authored at 24/192 when it should be 24/96. It plays back fine on my system but some external DACS may not support this.

 

Old Mac, I'm fully in line with you.

First swearwords came when I saw the kind heads up mail from Burning Shed, as I had an inkling that with my luck I'm one of the impacted. I finally got it yesterday, after waiting for two weeks after the pre-order delivery was confirmed as been sent. I'm facing the same issue with my Sony BDP-S550. As I had no luck with the firmware I had (24), I went for the latest version and updated to firmware 26. Still no luck at all.

I then tested if the previous Blu-ray disks work, and yes they do. Movies and the XTC's Drums & Wires and Noncush work just as fine as before, only the Oranges & Lemons is failing. While loading the different versions of XTC Blu-rays I noticed that the loading process in Sony front panel is progressing at a different cycle for D&W and Nonsuch than what is the case for O&L. From that I already gathered that something has been done differently. This was confirmed when I read these posts today.

The annoying thing for me is that while BurningShed have made a different kind of BD they are now trying to pinpoint all accusations to Sony. It might well be that Sony is the main culprit (and I also will be wary of purchasing anything with a Sony logo on it again). However, this goes as well for BS products. Something was done differently and a thorough inspection should be done there as well. Was the change in the creation process done with the full confidence that it is a fully managed and reliable change with all possible impacts understood? Apparently this can be speculated further.

Until this is satisfactorily resolved I'm not going to spend another dime that way. Such a shame, as I was fully expecting to go through the motions and renew all of my XTC library to the surround versions.

Sour grapes indeed, these Oranges and Lemons

Great thanks to Andy & team for making the effort to renew all their masterworks!

 

Did Burning Shed make this disc? Burning Shed is a distributor and they may seem like they are the "label", but they are not (from my understanding). I have no inside information as to whether Burning Shed made decisions on how to author or duplicate these discs, but I have to believe that placing blame on Burning Shed is off base.

Burning Shed is a phenomenal distributor and online-store. They have GREAT customer service - note that when you buy something from Burning Shed and it has been deemed "defective" by the label that made the disc, Burning Shed sends you a new copy automatically if they are re-pressed. Nothing for you to do, nothing to send back, nothing to worry about.

If you had ordered this disc from Amazon, you would not have gotten an email about the issue and what was being done to rectify - hence even though Burning Shed has raised your frustration and anger levels, doing what they did (email) points to good customer service.

My only gripe about Burning Shed is if you pre-order something, even months in advance of release date, you get charged immediately. Therefore I have stopped pre-ordering from them and will only order when I hear they are shipping the item (or actually have it marked as in stock).

Again, I have no stake in Burning Shed, but naming them as the culprit for creating a disc that doesn't act like previous releases is not their fault (from my understanding). Talk to the label head or the person responsible for authoring the disc (who is the person who started this thread).

I might tend to agree something is different about this new disc (O+L) that wasn't part of the previous Blu-Ray XTC releases, but it may or may not be truly an issue with the disc as it is the firmware. You may actually find that as new Blu-Ray movies are released, authored in the same manner, may not play on these same Sony disc players.

 

I can open the O&L BluRay in Mac BluRay Player just fine by hitting "continue" at that initial message. The issue I run into is that it will only play the first two songs of the 2015 mixes and abruptly cuts off before the end of "Mayor Of Simpleton." This appears to be a problem limited to O&L as the BluRay of Yes' Fragile plays without issue in Mac BluRay Player.
Thankfully O&L actually plays fine on our Sony BluRay player (go figure), although I've not tried the video portion where others have had an issue.