Yamaha A-S1100 or McIntosh MA5200

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by matrix-6, Feb 12, 2019.

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  1. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks. I do like the sound of my R-N602. As thier moniker states, it does sound natural to my ears. The one thing though, is it seems to have a sweet spot when I listen to it at 60dB to 70dB 9" away. It just comes alive. So I will preface the following with I'm a little bit of a newbie to home stereo audiophile systems. I know that with car stereos more wattage and better amps typically give you a fuller sound even at low levels. Does the same apply to home stereo amps? Will the A-S1100 sound fuller at lower levels compared to the R-N602? Will it sound better at all levels? I hate to bring this up, but I read some say that at the same volume levels with little to no THD you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. There are thread on the forum about this and a guy that was or still is offering 10 grand or something like that to anyone that can tell the difference. I also hear Alan Shaw say the amp makes absolutely no difference at the same levels.
     
  2. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    This video is worth a watch:

    At 12:39 he compares the phono pre to the Pro-Ject Tube Box. He prefers the A-S1100. His other videos on the A-S1100 are worth watching as well. He digs pretty deep including hooking up test equipment and running measurements. He loves it. Yamaha should pay him a commission. He sold it for me.
     
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  3. AudioMike33

    AudioMike33 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Usa
    You seem Bent On Believing the person who's trying to sell you the McIntosh the salesman but people are giving you loads of advice here that you just seem to be ignoring I don't get it.

    You're taking the salesman word like it's the gospel and you're taking people's words here like they mean nothing just buy one and find out for yourself. Yamaha makes a damn good amp.
     
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  4. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Far from it. Why would you assume that? Look at all my replies and figure it out. I have nothing against anyone here and I value everyone's opinion. I am asking additional questions for clarification. That's all. Let me know what I wrote that offended you and I will let you know what my actual intent was when I wrote it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  5. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Found this on another forum: Yamaha A-S1100 vs vintage McIntosh

    "FYI -- In late 2016, I replaced/upgraded from a Yamaha A/S2000 to a Macintosh MA5200 integrated amp -- never looked back. Totally a step up. The Yamaha is sitting on my closet floor -- will be trying to sell it on local CraigsList this spring."

    The S2000 is not the same as the S1100/S2100/S3000 though. Curious how they compare. The guy in the video above said he would never get anything but the S1100/S2100/S3000 as the audio in the other S series goes through an op amp and don't have Mosfets.
     
  6. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    BTW, please keep this thread on topic and not personal. Anyone else researching this specific question is likely more interested in the topic than a forum spat. I didn't create this thread for a fight, or a group hug for that matter. I started it for people like myself researching this stuff. Stick to the topic and don't make it personal. And to clarify, I am not making this personal, even if you think I am.
     
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  7. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    For those researching this stuff, I found the following on autotransformers: MAC Autoformers? | Audiogon Discussion Forum

    It sounds like what the dealer was mentioning about Macs being the only amps to output consistent wattage at all levels, but not all of them use it as mentioned earlier and in that thread. The thread implies it's a mixed bag as well. Some think autotransformers are bad, some think they are good, and some say they don't matter either way. One guy, though, said the following as far as pros and cons:

    "The autoformer amps have a different design goal, output a consistent maximum current regardless of the load's impedance, using the autoformer to "match" the load to the amp's output stage. So a McIntosh amp might be rated at 1200 watts into 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

    Which is "better"? Well, that depends. Assuming your maximum listening levels cause a current draw well within the limits of the amplifiers, I can't believe there will be much of an audible difference in sound attributable to the autoformers. They don't add distortion, but they *can* affect the system's frequency response.

    The autoformer adds some resistance in the output path, so the so-called damping factor, or the output impedance of the amplifier, is probably going to be a lot higher than a direct-coupled amp, like the Krell. It's all that wire in the autoformer; it adds resistance. How is this audible? It may not be, but if you have speakers that present a very low impedance load you could have a roll-off or dip at those frequencies where that happens, I suppose. Will the roll-off be audible? I don't know, but some speakers do present very low impedance at some frequencies (early Legacy Focus, Apogees, and Wilson Watts come to mind), so if you own one of those I'd stay away from autoformer amps, but that's not intended to be some deep pronouncement.

    Autoformer designs allow a manufacturer to spend more on producing high current into higher impedance loads, so assuming there was some real relationship between cost and price (there really isn't for products like this) for X dollars you could get more watts into 8 ohms than with the non-autoformer design. Take a look at the MC1.2 for example. 1200 watts/ch into 8 ohms. What does Krell offer that puts out 1200 watts into 8 ohms, and how much does it cost? Of course, the MC1.2 will still put out 1200 watts into 4 ohms, while the Krell is putting out twice the watts into 4 ohms, but since the MC1.2 starts out so much higher in power, you don't really see the two design approaches differ until very low impedances, when even a low-end Krell amp is putting out over 2000 watts, assuming you have a 220v/30amp power line running to the silly thing.

    So are autoformer amps better or worse than direct-coupled amps? For most speaker loads you'll never hear a difference, but I admit to strongly preferring the direct-coupled approach, assuming you can afford a good enough amp that it does indeed act like a good voltage source, like a Krell. I think a very low output impedance is indicative of a better design, but I wouldn't bet five cents on my ability to tell the difference in a double-blind test. It's just my opinion, but I'm the buyer so I get to have one that counts!"​
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  8. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    So one other thing. Longevity. Macs are known for lasting a lifetime and being an heirloom you can hand down to your kids or grandkids. Before you roll your eyes, I'm guessing the Yamaha A-S1100 being well built and solid state will last just as long. If my assumption is wrong, let me know.
     
  9. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Found this on another forum where someone was underwhelmed with the Mac5200 he tried at a Best Buy:

    "B&W speakers partnered with a solid state Mac amp is like mixing orange juice with milk. It is just a poor combo. They do not compliment each other at all.
    And auditioning anything at Best Buy is always a dodgy thing thing to do, a good indie dealer will pick brands which gel well together. Best Buy will do the typical corporation approach - aim for the lowest common denominator. In this case - go for brands people with a little knowledge think are gonna be good.
    B&W's house sound insipid midrange and over-enthusiastic high frequency presentation is hard enough on the ears as it is, but to have these sonic over-steers driven by a Mac SS amp is a recipe for the audio equivalent of a meal at Marie Callender.
    Picking the right amp for any given pair of speakers is arguably the most critical piecing of an audio system puzzle. And it has very little to do with wattage."

    So now I'm wondering how much truth there is too this and whether the A-S1100 or Mac5200 would pair best with Harbeth PS3ERs.
     
  10. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    With all due respect, you seem confused. It has nothing to do with favorites. I like McIntosh. You just seem married to the idea of owning the MA5200 and it's pretty clear. If price is not an object and you want one shot to do this right, then expand your options beyond these two amps. Why are you limited to just these two? If you want the best sound from Mac and you don't care about price, then I would look beyond Mac's entry level integrated and look at better Mac integrated amps. It's not even the latest entry level Mac integrated. The MA5300 is available right now.

    However, you put forward a choice between only two amps. So if I had to choose between the MA5200 and the A-S1100, then the Yamaha wins all day. Not just on price, but on sound quality. There is nothing the MA5200 does better than the A-S1100. The phono stage alone on the Yamaha is superior and worth the price of admission. The primary difference is that the MA5200 has a DAC. That's no selling point from my perspective because I'd rather have an external option. I'm not you, so perhaps you don't care about that.

    In my opinion, if you're willing to spend $4300 for the MA5200, just pony up a few extra bucks for a better Mac. You're basically 80% there in terms of what you're going to spend and you seem to want McIntosh. If that's what you want, then go all the way with it.
     
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  11. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I think his assertion was diluted down to that, but of course that claim is ridiculous. I've A/B'd many amps - volume matched - and with some, yes, they sound very similar. Example - the Sony TA-A1ES sounds nearly identical to the Parasound Halo Integrated (Mk1) at lower levels. However, nothing sounds like the MOSFET Yamahas.
     
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  12. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Mac :
    Tone Controls
    No

    :cop:
     
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  13. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    And BTW I was and still am pretty set on the A-S1100 and still am. I didn't want to mention it because I didn't want to bias any answers.
    Awesome thanks! I can't imagine them not sounding different or the "secret con" on higher priced amps would be out by now.
     
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  14. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    I haven’t heard a McIntosh amp in 20 years, but I’d like to. As many have alluded to, popular wisdom is that a big part of the McIntosh sound from is from the autoformers. To get a Mac integrated without them would make me wonder what I was missing.

    I owned a AS-2000 and it was fantastic, but one day I went to turn it on and it’s power protection circuit kicked in and it wouldn’t turn on. Yamaha replaced the amp. It doesn’t seem to be all that uncommon with that particular amp. I wonder if it’s popped up with the newer 1100/2100? If so, I haven’t heard of it.

    I currently have a less expensive AS-801. It’s phono stage is not in the same league as the AS-2000, but the digital input is stellar. It also feels more powerful and grippier than the A-S2000, which was more laid back and romantic sounding.

    Because of my experience with my previous Yamaha, if I had to place a bet, I’d bet on the longevity of the Mac. The Yamaha felt very nicely made, even with its faulty power circuit (and hey, maybe the circuit did its job and stopped a power surge or something, but Yamaha determined the part would be too costly and take to long to get, so they replaced it).

    I say get the Yamaha and spend the difference on a Border Control DAC or something like that.
     
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  15. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    And that is the misunderstanding. I was set on the AS1100 before I started this thread. I started this thread to be sure I wouldn't be making a mistake.

    I didn't want to bias anyone so I didn't mention it. Here's my story:

    1. I own a Yamaha R-N602 receiver. I love it because it has everything I need and I love how it sounds.
    2. I always wanted a Mac because I've read nothing but stellar reviews on them.
    3. For fun (this is supposed to be fun right) I checked out what Mac had to offer ,to see what I would get if I ever could afford one.
    4. The closest thing that would replace the R-N602 and make sense in my space was the MAC7200.
    5. I have a second old cheap JVC RX-212 that I use in another room for movies. It works surprisingly well and the family loves it!
    6. The JVC was beginning to drop bass, so I thought it was on the way out.
    7. I figured I would replace it with the R-N602 and get an upgrade to replace the 602 for music.
    8. I asked here on the forums and started researching a bit.
    9. I heard amps don't really make a difference and so I settled on getting the R-N803.
    10. Sure enough I had a little extra money and I thought well maybe I should look at something nicer before I spend the money on the 803.
    11. I remember the A-S3000 was more expensive than the MAC7200.
    12. I researched the A-S line and found out how much people loved the A-S1100 and how close it was the the A-S3000.
    13. After a ton of digging, reading reviews, forums, videos, I settled on the A-S3000 and figured it would be my end all amp at least until I won the lottery or something.
    14. I heard speakers are more important than amps and you will get the biggest sonic gain upgrading them.
    15. I did some research and because my space is limited I settled on the Harbeth P3ESR anniversary edition.
    16. I was able to test them out and compare them on the same system with my KEF Q100s. The difference was night and day.
    17. At this point I rewired the speakers on the JVC and the bass dropping out is gone so I realized I no longer needed to replace it.
    18. So now, instead of being set on getting the A-S1100 I wondered if it would make more sense to just keep the R-N602s with the Harbeths and save the $2500. It also made more sense to save that money towards the MAC7200.
    19. After debating what to do, I thought screw it, I want meters and I want an upgrade now. I don't want to wait 5 to 10 years for the 7200 or equivalent.
    29. With the 72000 out of my price range, I went right to the A-S1100. I watched more videos and I was set when I heard about how good the phono pre-amp was. Getting back into vinyl is what took me down this path. I started with a Pro-Ject Carbon Classic with 2M silver, upgraded to a 2M Blue, got tired of having to remove the platter, and said screw it, I'm getting a Technics SL-1210GR and Nagaoka MP-200, while the Pro-Ject with the blue would go to another room where I primarily listen to 33's only.
    30. So I was all set on the A-S1100 but then I realized all I researched in the Mac range was the 7200. I didn't even look at their other integrated amps because I thought why put money towards them when that money could go towards the 7200.
    31. I checked McIntosh's site and found the 5200. I called around and found out it was discontinued for the $5500 5300 with the digital module. I found one new 5200 left for $4200.
    33. Like an idiot I mixed up the price of the A-S1100 and A-S2100 thinking the MAC5200 was only $800 more! That was my stupidity and I fully admit it.
    34. I started this thread hoping to get some opinions irrespective of price.

    And that's it. At this point I am still set on the A-S1100. I think the 5200 was a compromise to the 7200 and I'd rather risk $2500 vs. $4200 for now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  16. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    What?! OK that I overlooked. That kills the 5200 for me.
     
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  17. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    That's the second time I've heard this and a little scary. The first was the guy that did the video above. He did another on it going out here:



    The solution was to start it up in diagnostic mode and resetting it to factory defaults. And he had it hooked up to a relatively pricey Furman power conditioner and surge protector, which did not protect it. We rarely get lighting but the power does sometime go in and out during hi wind and just recently with the snow and falling trees.
     
  18. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    They brought out the 5300 a couple of years after the 5200. That tells me that they had to correct some things. That would steer me away from the 5200.
     
  19. james

    james Summon The Queen

    Location:
    Annapolis
    Have you considered other brands, such as Rega, Naim...maybe used Luxman or Accuphase?
     
  20. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Agreed. I'm down to the two, because I love the Yamaha sound. My brother had one when I was younger and I love my R-N602. The A-S1100 seems like the perfect pinnacle Yamaha amp for my needs. The Mac was just one of those pipe dreams.

    Thank you! I am sold. I don't need the DAC and I definitely don't want one in the signal chain. The A-S1100 having a discrete analog signal path is part of the appeal. My first impression hearing the 5200 had a DAC was a negative, but then I'm guessing the analog inputs bypass the DAC? I don't know.

    Agreed. I came to the conclusion last night. I wanted the 7200 and the 5200 was a compromise. But... If the 5200 was just as good as the 7200 for my setup - 9' away from P3s at 50 dB - 70 dB listening levels then maybe I wouldn't need the 7200 after all, and the 5200 could be my end all amp.

    The end all amp. That is where I am trying to get. I think the A-S1100 is it, but I don't know. If money were no object I likely would go for the MAC7200 now, but I can't afford one. I can stretch the 5200, but why bother if it isn't any better than the A-S1100. My question now I guess is what would be better sonically in my space, the 5200 or 7200. If the 7200 then it's a no brainer, go for the A-S1100. If the 5200 and 7200 are the same, and the A-S1100 is just as good, then still go for the A-S1100. So.. I'm pretty set. I actually like the look of the A-S1100 better and so does the family.
     
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  21. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    I'm hearing it's just the new DAC module, but you could be right. I am curious if there is more to it.
     
  22. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks and please, please do not take offense, but I don't want to go down that path. Look at this thread. It's exhausting. I'm pretty set on the Yamaha or McIntosh. I just want to be done with it. I'm kind of halfway between Alan Shaw's thinking, playing it safe, and just wanting something really nice that looks good to the family. But yeah, if the A-S1100 is all that everyone is making it out to be then I should be perfectly happy with it.

    Which BTW makes me wonder if the A-S1100 will be much of an upgrade over the R-N602. I guess I will find out and I won't be biased as I will be keeping the 602 for the tuner and streaming. I will be A/Bing them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  23. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    The thread should have ended right here.
     
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  24. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Well, I don't feel right buying things to test them out, so I'd rather get as close to possible with my decision before buying. That and I'm not perfect so I might even miss something testing them out. I missed the 5200 lacking tone controls for example. I might have been happy with the sound only to discover months from now that it would be nice to have them.

    When people like myself post these questions it's meant to find out what the general consensus is and to discover anything we might have missed. You also hope to find someone that had both exact models could weight the pros and cons, which some did.

    I heard people into audiophile get heated but didn't believe it would happen to me until now. I'm new to the forum and this experience honestly makes me want to leave, but I don't because I know there are others like me that might be looking for the same info in time. Hopefully they will be able to weed through this thread and gain some info that will help with their decision. I know I did the same researching this and other forums, which reminds me, there's another review I read about the S series having some issues with timing or something which seemed really odd. I'll look it up and post back with a link. Edit: scratch that. I can't find it now but I remember it was the 803 and not the A-S1100. They liked the 803 overall. It was just that one thing that held it back for them. It got 4 out of 5 stars from them. If do find it I will post back.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  25. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Be nice if you could audition both. That would be the better than listening to us.

    I've not heard either, but unheard I would go for the Yamaha. I think they make great sounding hifi equipment and would expect it to sound best, but I could be wrong of course.

    The McIntosh gets a lot of love for resale value, build quality, American made, that the Yamaha does not. Yamaha has sound quality going for it and most time in comparable cases I believe they win. If you don't give a rats ass about resale value like me, I go for best sound every single time.
     
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