Yamaha A-S1100 or McIntosh MA5200

I think I will just for those meters!

 

I mentioned it earlier. Because I can't. None of the shops in my area have either on display. That said, there is a 15 day return policy on the A-S1100 so I'm going that route first. If it doesn't sound better than my R-N602 I'll likely return it. At that point I'm not sure what I would do. With the Mac I think there would be a restocking fee so I'd have to weigh that in, not to mention the 5200 might feel like a compromise to the 7200 which I really want, so I'd likely just save up at that point and enjoy my R-N602. And of course I'd want to research more Macs first, but I am pretty set at new only. All the used ones listed have minor scratches and at that price point I kind of want pristine virgin new.

 

Awesome! Thank you! Can't wait.

 

I read an interesting review of your current receiver at The Audiophile Man website, by Paul Rigby. Sounds like a good-value machine if you go Pure Direct and have a turntable!

 

I'll need to check that out. It is great for the money. I didn't notice a difference at all with Pure Direct and leaving the bass, treble and loudness levels flat. It could be my setup and the volume levels I listen to though. I currently have KEF Q100s. The P3s are on the way. Sonically there are two things that bug me about the R-N602 though. One, the phono pre is pretty low. I have to use the volume trim to add +7dB to match all the other inputs. The 602 allows -10 to +10 dB adjustment for the individual inputs. It's a nice feature, but it does make me think the phono pre is a little weak. It does sound clean when turned up though, so if you ignore the lower initial volume it doesn't really matter I guess. I do know my cheapo Turntable Lab vp29.TTL is louder. Two, the R-N602 definitely has a sweet spot when it comes to volume levels. It doesn't really shine until you turn it up a bit. It's definitely not bad at lower levels, but it's just not as full and present sounding. That's what the Loudness control is for, but I don't like having it set when I do turn it up, and Loudness level isn't on the remote. I have to get up and adjust it manually if if I want to disable it for louder levels. It's a pain so I just leave it off. Those two issues aside it really is a superb receiver and amp for the price. It's super convenient with FM/AM, Airplay, and Spotify built in as well. I would highly recommend it and would be perfectly happy with it. I just have the extra funds for the AS-1100 at the moment, I like the look of the 1100 with the meters, and I am genuinely curious to see how it compares sonically to the 602. I should be picking up my Harbeths on Saturday so it will be interesting to hear the 602 with them. The A-S1100 should arrive in a couple of weeks. I think I mentioned it earlier, but they say speakers to make the biggest difference. They say they should account for 60% of your budget as they will make the biggest impact. Of course that only applies once you have a decent amp or receiver which I would say the 602 and 803 are. I plan to use the 602 as an FM tuner and streamer for Airplay and Spotify with the A-S1100.

 

An excellent quality amp, when its “loudness”, filters etc. are not activated, does not sound at all. I.e. it adds nothing audible to the signal it receives onto its inputs.

 

The Harbeth P3ESRs only need a Rega Elex-R to get the best out of them. Why spend more?

 

The meters!

 

Yeah, that's Shaw's argument that the amp won't matter at all and higher end amps are just fluff and overpriced. The only case of course is if you need the extra power to fill a larger space, but at "average" listening levels in a small space it won't make a difference. I'll know soon enough if that's the case between the R-N602 and A-S1100.

 

I don't recall meters improving sound quality but I'm only a humble engineer!

Still, if you want pay out an extra $1000 or so for them, that's your call.

 

I've read that he occasionally pairs his speakers with an A-S801 at shows. Question is, why not just the 501? The specs between the two are close enough. Between my 500 and 1100, the latter produces a much wider soundstage, better channel separation and greater detail. Had I not heard it, I never would've guessed I was missing much with the 500. Of course all this depends on the resolution of the speakers. The Harbeths I had in my system for a short time were not nearly as resolving as some of my subsequent speakers, so maybe that plays a role in Shaw's assertions.

I've been chasing a reference sound for the last couple years - one I've only heard in a highly-treated, purpose-built room. I think I may have finally achieved it with a recent speaker purchase. I can sigh some relief that the 1100 was not the bottleneck.

 

I don’t see what relationship could your “Yeah” and “Shaw's argument that the amp won't matter at all and higher end amps are just fluff and overpriced” bear to my post.

As to me, I never “joked” kind of an amp didn’t matter, OK? I said excellent quality amp didn’t sound itself.

A lousy quality amp will foul up any sound system, isn’t it evident?

Not the only. Even in the same listening room you may need extra power if you connect other LSs with substantially less sensitivity.

 

You will notice a dramatic improvement in sound and if its anything like my 801, tight snappy controlled bass.

 

I've heard both. You won't believe the difference; it won't be subtle ! It'll make you ebay your receiver instantly.

 

According to Shaw, amp tech peaked so if you have a decent amp you won't notice a different because the amp won't color the sound. I thought that's what you meant when you said an "excellent quality amp didn’t sound itself".

 

Can you clarify what that means? I don't understand.

 

So I plan to connect the R-N602 to the A-S1100 for the Tuner, Airplay. Should I connect the line out to the one of the Tuner in on the A-S1100 or the Main in?

Here's the 602 back:

https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/PI...23.1009451158.1549863580-375185639.1514317736

Here's the 1100 back (main in is towards the right of the Line 2 input)

https://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/PI...63.1009451158.1549863580-375185639.1514317736

 

ive heard the mac a few times now and it can deliver the goods. drove the b & w diamond towers with impressive clarity, weight and impact. conservatively rated. i know the OP made his choice but the mac isnt just a pretty face.

 

What sounds in a sound reproduction system? Loudspeakers and headphones. Amps don’t “sound”.

And my idea was already exposed in one of my previous posts:

What do I mean by “nothing audible” when “loudness”, filters etc. are not activated?
Audible non-linear distortions, continuous “sh-sh-sh…” noise, hum, buzz, dynamics distortions etc.

And as I already wrote above, in my system, with three “generations” of integrateds having each “0.007…0.009%” THD, good or very good damping factors, absolutely silent, and when using the components well mutually meeting their parameters, in normal mode, without overload, no audible non-linear distortions, continuous “sh-sh-sh…” noise, hum, buzz, dynamics distortions etc. were caused by the amps. They were, and the actual one is, to me, absolutely “transparent” to the signal treated and didn’t, and the actual one doesn’t, “sound” themselves.

And the signal reasonably equalized by means of good quality graphic equalizers (not less than 10-band, with the lowest slider at NOT HIGHER THAN 31 Hz), inserted into their internal circuit owing to their “monitoring” function (in the case of the three, is was “TAPE MONITOR” button and the respective inputs/outputs on the rear panel. This function is also realized in some integrateds as “TAPE-SOURCE” switch on the front panel), with my “not-so-small” 3-way “floor standers”, never overloaded, I had and I have all I need in “30 Hz - 16…20 kHz” range, with “deep bass” and the rest of the audible range adjustable to my taste. Sounding clear and transparent when the “source” is high quality. Just as through headphones.

That’s what I mean.

 

Distortion and noise floor are not exactly one and the same. The low-level hum and "shhh" sound you refer to involves S/N ratio. That level is far below the audible threshold (from any practical listening distance) with any Yamaha amp I've experienced, cheap or otherwise. That goes for a lot of Japanese makes because they learned how to curtail that problem decades ago.

As for distortion, even ultra-high-end speakers are causing much more of that than any SS amp that's operating within specs. Some tube amps create about 3% at their full-output, but many would be hard-pressed to hear the difference from the music. I'd wager that even 1% of 3rd and 5th harmonics would be hard to detect at normal listening volume.

I'm not saying measurements don't matter. I'm saying that once things drop beneath a certain threshold (which is much higher than .007%), anything further isn't of practical concern.

 

Did I say this somewhere?

In high quality sound amps, yes for low-level

In audio equipment generally speaking, “S/N ratio” is for any levels of continuous “sh-sh-sh…” noise, hum (rather noticeable in cassette decks), buzz (in poorly shielded low-level circuits etc.) and even dynamic range compressors strongly activated may considerably reduce the initial S/N ratio.

In the majority of cases, yes. As with my three amps I spoke about, and all the good quality graphic equalizers I used.

But not always. Very high power amps feeding very high sensitivity LSs in very quiet listening rooms, may “deliver” audible continuous “sh-sh-sh…” noise and/or hum and/or buzz during pauses in sound material.

The question divides into two different, specific “sections”:

1. Non-linear distortions of LSs are not comparable with those of amps. All three “generations" of LSs in my system, I accentuate it, used without overload, always made it possible for me, while critical listening tests, to notice distortions of mediocre level amps with much lower nominal non-linear distortions than their “own”, by contrast with high quality amps, “delivering”, through the same LSs, clear, transparent sound.
2. “%%”s of non-linear distortions of SS and tube amps are, in their turn, not comparable for audibility due to decisive spectral differences of distortions engendered by these two types of amplifying elements.

But even for tube amps, the “3% at their full-output” you cited as example, are something, I think, inadmissible in high quality equipment. People can find on the net specifications of one of the best Leak STEREO amps from more than 55 years ago era (!) with “0.1%” THD (though for “1 kHz”) and damping factor “60” for 1 kHz:
http://www.keith-snook.info/manufacturers-averts/LEAK-Stereo-30.pdf

Years ago, I had a possibility to listen attentively to ultra-linear push-pull “EL-34” tubes control amps with “0.05%” THD at 20 W/ch and “0.1%” THD at 27 W/ch (though published for “1 kHz”). With high quality sound material from tape recorders at 76.2 and 38.1 cm/s, the sound was extremely clear.

For SS type amps, some listening researches said beneath the threshold of about 0.03%.
For tube amps, I think, some higher, but not about “3%”!..

For REAL THD, I’d agree, with all previous reservations.

But many years ago, I began listening to a very cheap SS amp (industrially mfrd, not DIY), with THD “0.09%” declared, but the amp “delivered” audible harmonics. I don’t know why. In those days I hadn’t any program THD measurement instrument, I use for years now (incorporated in an excellent “spectrum analyzer”, in reality a universal professional level audio testing unit).

So, the “numbers” of specifications of any audio gear should be verified if possible. At least by auditioning very attentively.

 

Non having a possibility to edit this post anymore, please read it as follows:

“But even for tube amps, the “3% at their full-output” you cited as example, are something, I think, inadmissible in high quality equipment.

Years ago, I had a possibility to listen attentively to ultra-linear push-pull “EL-34” tubes control amps with “0.05%” THD at 20 W/ch and “0.1%” THD at 27 W/ch (though published for “1 kHz”). With high quality sound material from tape recorders at 76.2 and 38.1 cm/s, the sound was extremely clear.

Even for SS-type amps, people can find on the net specifications of one of Leak STEREO amps from more than 55 years ago era (!) with “0.1%” THD (though for “1 kHz”) and damping factor “60” for 1 kHz:
http://www.keith-snook.info/manufacturers-averts/LEAK-Stereo-30.pdf
”

 

We can certainly agree on that.

 

Rereading this page I suddenly returned to the question: what are objective technical quality parameters by which the A-S1100 would “sound” better than your R-N602?

 

I'll let you know if I find out. Do you think they will sound better?