Yes!? NO! - The all purpose Yes arguing and complaining thread

I'll see if I can track it down.

 

Excellent post. Put Barbieri in Yes or Wakeman in the Porkies and the results would be disastrous.

As for Oliver, it is entirely possible that he was told to play that way (as it was rumoured Igor was).

 

To tell you the truth, I've never been a fan of his "sheets of sound". So if he is doing that on Giant Steps, my answer to your question would be yes, yes, yes...

 

Fair enough. Personally, I'll take Mozart's melodic beauty over almost any other composer. And I also prefer David Gilmour to Joe Satriani. I'm not into note-counting.

 

Actually it does. It reduces an artist's palette. All it can do is make an artist a lesser artist. Case in point, when a keyboardist sets out the recreate existing arrangements and has to simplify the more technically difficult parts. Artistry is about making choices. Technical excellence simply expands the range of choices available for an artist to choose from.

 

Ironically many of those composers that I prefer whose music is more complex than Mozart are also often more melodic. An appreciation for musical complexity is not note counting.

 

True - but you appear to be engaging in note-counting here. Nobody is disputing that Wakeman can play more notes in a given amount of time. But music isn't a race.

 

Nope, not doing that at all. Pointing out a musician's technical inadequacy in trying to play existing arrangements is not note counting.

Given Downes admission that what I observed was *exactly* what was actually going on, that he was trying to play the original arrangements but lacked the chops to play the more difficult parts I'd think that would be the end of the discussion and the folks who thought he was bringing any kind of "improvement" to those arrangements would quietly walk away from the argument. It wasn't an artistic choice. It was a forced choice. I find it ironic that those who were accusing me of not "getting" music or appreciating the "new light" Downes was shedding on "old tired arrangements" failed to see that he was actually trying to play the original Wakeman arrangements but couldn't play the hard parts and had to literally lose notes to play the pieces to the best of his inadequate abilities while I saw it clear as day. But what do I know about music? I'm just a note counter.

 

Not exactly. Several people have stated that they didn't like Wakeman's sonic choices and the overall result in his more recent appearances with Yes. I can't comment on that front since I didn't see those shows - but what good is technical mastery if the result is not pleasing? Of course not everyone agrees on this, "pleasing" is in the ears of the beholder. And when I saw Yes last year with Downes on keys...sure, he can't play as fast as Wakeman (never could), and Howe can't play as fast as he used to...but I enjoyed the performances none-the-less. Perhaps more than I would have had Wakeman made some of the bizarre sonic departures that I have read about.

 

It is certainly conceivable that one musician could have superior technical chops and dexterity while another has a more satisfying sense of style and feel, knowing which notes not to play (I think that last part is particularly true for jazz, but it could be applied to all musicianship.). Pure technical prowess alone doesn't automatically make one the greatest musician, one that audiences respond to powerfully, and sometimes excessive pyrotechnics for their own sake can grow tiresome. But in this case, I'm inclined to agree that Downes doesn't always have the skill to pull off some of Wakeman's trickier arrangements from the 70's--it sounds like he admitted as much himself. That certainly doesn't make him a bad keyboardist but Yes has long been a band that has attracted the highest caliber of musicians and their challenging material reflects that. It doesn't sound to me like Downes simplifying the arrangements is so much a stylistic choice as a practical necessity. On the other hand, skillful though he undeniably is, Wakeman has his own shortcomings, IMO, particularly once we move past Yes' classic period.

 

Downes is excellent at creating keyboard textures that fill up a lot of space. He's more of a team player in that regard. However, Wakeman's classical chops are what catapulted yes into the truly progressive realm and IMO made them stand out amongst the crowd.

For me it totally depends on the material...in terms of who fits better. Same goes for Kaye.

 

As to why Yes didn't build on Owner's success like Genesis and Rush did in 80s, I think it is a fluke that had nothing to do with their sound, they didn't expect to be a big hit, and had no idea how to recreate (sorry, it does not mean you will also score with a cheesy ballad with a campfire video like "Love Will Find A Way"). IMO Owner has more in common with other Trevor Horn works like The Art of Noise than it does with other Yes music.

 

Yeah, sometimes I find Wakeman's playing on the Yes Album material to be a little busier than necessary.

 

Not liking Wakeman's sonic choices is a matter of taste. I'm not going to argue taste even if mine is different. I also have no problem with you or anyone else enjoying the current performances. But the changes Downes is making to the original arrangements are the result of technical deficiencies not the result of new artistic light being shed on old music. Pointing these facts out hardly makes me a note counter or someone who "doesn't get music." On the contrary, I would assert that those who mistake forced choices due to technical inadequacy as shedding new light on music are the ones who just might not be "getting" it. Nothing wrong with enjoying Yes as they are now even if it is a shadow of what they once were.

 

Downes is and was always a lucky guy as far as where he's ended up, all things considered.

 

Don't forget Trevor Rabin. That was all his material.

I really wish the band had been called Cinema, as Rabin wanted. That way the comparisons could cease.
Rabin didn't want to reform Yes, or be in Yes. The record company forced his hand once Jon Anderson signed on.

 

And King Crimson could have been Discipline in the 80's. It would have made for a cleaner break from the past, but I guess it's hard to walk away from those established name brands when it's time to book concerts.

 

I completely agree with what you are saying, but my point was that if artist A is less technically proficient at a certain skill than artist B, it doesn't automatically make artist B the greater artist and artist A the lesser, since artist A may have other skills or inclinations that artist B lacks--in the case of Rick and Geoff, I think Geoff lacks some of Rick's manual dexterity, but Rick lacks some of Geoff's creativity and judgment when it comes to choice of sounds. Which one is the better artist, then, becomes a subjective matter, even though one of them may objectively have more of one particular skill (a skill that only makes up one part of a much larger puzzle that is artistry).

 

I think the success has much more to do with Horn's production, with the abrupt samples etc. that were trendy at the time (again - see Art of Noise).
It's not much as a song, as becomes clear when you listen to Rabin's early versions without Horn's input.
Of course I also doubt it would have been a hit without the Yes name, which opened a lot of doors.

 

As you know, he is doing that on Giant Steps the sheets of sound thing. I always thought it was a little too much and so did Miles Davis.

 

Well I agree with you and Miles.

 

Right. So Wakeman is a more technically dexterous keyboardist. That is unarguable. Whether he is a better musician is a matter of opinion.

 

I agree with your premise. But the the technical chops are pretty objective. The "creativity" is far more subjective. IMO Wakeman is and always has been an order of magnitude more "creative" than Geoff Downes. But that is my subjective opinion and my taste. I'm not going to argue against anyone else's taste. In this case, where Downes is explicitly trying to play existing arrangements but lacks the chops to do so there is very little subjective about it. My assertion of his inadequacies were objectively correct. Apparently even Downes agrees with me.

 

I would have loved to see the faces of the players on KOB when they saw the charts that Miles gave them. Especially John Coltrane who was used to being handed charts with tons of chords and tonal center changes that were distant neighbors and Miles hands him a chart with melodic fragments and Dorian scales.

 

Yes, but his inadequacy in playing Yes music is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact by Downes' own admission. I just find it really ironic that when I pointed that out I was the one being accused of "not getting it."