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You (didn't) ask for it!! Nat King Cole Capitol matrix and take numbers, misc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Oct 2, 2013.

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  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    In no order. The 7 of you that will find this interesting need medical help. Transcribed by Jason Blaine, late of Capitol/EMI.

    W-689 "The Piano Style Of Nat "King" Cole.

    Love Walked In
    14319-2
    My Heart Stood Still
    13981-14
    Imagination
    14317-9
    I Never Knew
    13982-8
    Stella By Starlight
    14325-14
    What Can I Say After I Say I'm Sorry
    13995-6
    I Didn't Know What Time It Was
    14342-15
    Taking A Chance On Love
    13996-7
    April In Paris
    14318-9
    I Want To Be Happy
    14383-25
    I See Your Face Before Me
    14320-1
    Just One Of Those Things
    13382-31
    I Get A Kick Out Of You
    14345-10
    If I Could Be With You (One Hour Tonight)
    14343-5
    I Hear Music
    13980-14
    Tea For Two
    13983-6
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Misc. songs:

    Unforgettable (original)
    7937-6
    My First And Last Love
    7938-8
    Early American
    7107-10
    Too Young
    7108-8
    Because of Rain
    7109-7
    Mona Lisa (original)
    5664-2
    The Magic Tree
    5642-2
    If I May (with The Four Knights)
    13330-11 (pieced)
    Jambo (with Stan Kenton)
    6514-6
    Orange Colored Sky (with Stan Kenton) (Original)
    6513-6
    Orange Colored Sky (with Stan Kenton) (stereo remake)
    36,115-10 (track)
    36115B-3 (overdub) Note, take 2B used on AP SACD and LP
    Non Dimenticar
    19893-4
    Bend A Little My Way
    19894-15
    Angel Eyes (with Billy May)
    10999-15
    Don't Blame Me
    18957-7
    (There Is) No Greater Love
    18984-11
    In The Cool Of The Day
    AA-39472-7
    Those Lazy Hazy Crazy Days Of Summer
    AA-39473-3
    Felicia
    AA-39474-5
    Dear Lonely Heart
    AA-37860-11
    Ramblin' Rose
    AA-37861-4
    Coo Coo Roo Coo Coo Paloma
    19892-9
    Give Me Your Love
    19891-7
    Thousands And Thousands of Girls
    33336-2
    Wild Is Love
    33335-14
    I Got Love
    19433-3
    Mood Indigo HOLD
    19553-1
    The Late Late Show (Lee HOLD)
    19572-8
    ------------------------

    WS-1713 "ST. LOUIS BLUES album
    Overture
    21945-4
    The Harlem Blues
    21948-14
    Chantez Le Bas
    21943-7
    Friendless Blues
    21951-8
    Stay
    21946-3
    Joe Turner Blues
    21949-7
    Beale Street Blues
    21940-9
    Careless Love
    21942-11
    Morning Star
    21944-10
    Memphis Blues
    21950-4
    Yellow Dog Blues
    21941-5
    St. Louis Blues
    21947-6

    W-782 AFTER MIDNIGHT
    Just You, Just Me
    15897-7
    I Was A Little Too Lonely
    15898-8 LEE HOLD
    Blame It On My Youth
    15922-1
    What Is There To Say
    15923-14 Gillette HOLD
    Candy
    15789 8 LEE HOLD
    Sweet Loraine
    15790-4
    It's Only A Paper Moon
    15791-5
    You Can Depend On Me
    15788-10 "Hold Per Lee Gillette DND!"
    The Lonely One
    15921-11
    Don't Let It Go To Your Head
    15895-10
    I Know That You Know
    15937-3
    When I Grow Too Old To Dream
    15938-11
    (Get Your Kicks On) Route 66
    15792-3
    Two Loves Have I
    15939-14 Phono Reel Hold per LG.
    Just you, Just Me
    15897-7
    Sometimes I'm Happy
    15936-5
    Caravan
    15920-5
    You're Looking At Me
    15896-11

    W-903 JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS
    When Your Lover Has Gone
    17396-14 pieced
    A Cottage For Sale
    17394-9
    Who's Sorry Now
    17345-21
    Once In A While
    17347-8
    These Foolish Things
    17346-9
    Just For The Fun Of It
    17288-12
    Don't Get Around Much Any More
    17285-11
    I Understand
    17395-3
    Just One Of Those Things
    17391 BLANK
    The Song Is Ended
    17286-15
    I Should Care
    17392-9
    The Party's Over
    17393-14
    You'll Never Know
    17287-14 GILLETTE HOLD

    W-824 LOVE IS THE THING

    When I Fall In Love
    16335-5
    Star Dust
    16308-7
    Stay As Sweet As You Are
    16340-7
    Where Can I Go Without You
    16303-5
    Maybe It's Because I Love You Too Much
    16300-6
    Love Letters
    16301-9
    Ain't Misbehavin'
    16336-7
    I Thought About Marie
    16302-8 pieced
    At Last
    16338-3
    It's All In The Game
    16310-9
    When Sunny Gets Blue
    16337-12
    Love Is The Thing
    16309 TAKE ONE, BITCHES!!

    W-1120/1724 WELCOME TO THE CLUB
    Welcome To The Club
    19573-15
    Anytime, ANyday, Anywhere
    19557-2
    The Blues Don't Care
    19569-6
    Mood Indigo
    19553-7
    Baby Won't You Please Come Home?
    19571-7
    The Late Late Show
    19572-10
    Avalon
    19570-6
    She's Funny That Way
    19550-5
    I Want A Little Girl
    19552-9
    Wee Baby Blues
    10570-7
    Look Out For Love
    19584-15
    Madrid
    19591-18 (intro from 17) Gillette Hold

    W-1084 THE VERY THOUGHT OF YOU
    Paradise
    18960-6
    This Is All I Ask
    18928-9
    Cherie
    19064-8
    Making Believe You're Here
    18951-9
    Cherchez Le Femme
    18958-9
    For All We Know
    19093-3
    The More I See You
    18929-5
    The Very Thought Of You
    18959-9
    But Beautiful
    19066-3
    Impossible
    19065-9
    I Wish I Knew
    18927-7
    I Found A Million Dollar Baby
    18930-4
    Magnificent Obsession
    19063-7
    My Heart Tells Me
    18952-2

    The Nat "King" Cole Story remakes (I didn't copy all of them, sorry)
    Walkin' My Baby Back Home
    AA36207-6
    Route 66
    AA23551-21
    Straighten Up And Fly Right
    AA23564-9
    For Sentimental Reasons
    AA23565-12
    Answer Me My Love
    AA-23570-6
    Je Vous Aime Beacoup
    AA23571-7
    Smile
    AA23572-7
    Pretend
    AA-23573-8
    Too Young
    AA-23577-6
    A Blossom Fell
    AA-23574-12
    Nature Boy
    AA-23580-11
    Somewhere Along The Way
    AA-23581-7
    Mona Lisa
    AA23583-16
    Unforgetable
    AA23584-16 live version
    Take 4 overdub from track of take 16
    Send For Me
    AA23585-11
    If I May
    AA-23586-10
    Looking Back
    AA23587-1
     
    Ere, SinnerSaint, BeSteVenn and 13 others like this.
  2. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Steve, you are aware, that while those Bear Family box sets of Nat's CAPITOL years, don't hold any worth on ANY of the recordings that you've put your touch on, but the booklets have great detail of the recording sessions, as shown ...

    Nat King Cole.jpg
     
  3. howlinrock

    howlinrock Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Yes, I am aware, but where are the take numbers on there? Just the matrix numbers. The actual take numbers are not on there. They tell the true story.

    These rare take numbers on this thread were lovingly copied by hand by ol' Jason. I thought I'd give him this thread as a tribute.
     
    ashlee5, Kkfan, .crystalised. and 2 others like this.
  5. dale 88

    dale 88 Errand Boy for Rhythm

    Location:
    west of sun valley
    Much appreciated, Steve. (and Jason)

    I am sipping something medicinal as I scan the list. :cheers:
     
    Steve Hoffman likes this.
  6. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    "Love Is The Thing"
    16309 TAKE ONE, BITCHES!!


    LOL!, I like that. Noticing the single digit takes on so many songs. Nat must have been some kind of a professional.
     
    Kkfan and DLant like this.
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Ha, you actually read through that far? I'm impressed.

    Please note that most (80%) of failed Nat takes were orchestra clams or breakdowns. Unless Nat forgot the words he hardly ever goofed. A true professional, non-existent in our time.
     
  8. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    How bout that, amazing. A lost art I suppose.

    Steve, can you explain what the signifigance of the matrix numbers are?
     
  9. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Funny, I guess that I never noticed that the actual take used was not listed in those booklets? So yes, here's to Jason, as the used takes are VERY important and interesting to read about, thanks Steve for sharing! The booklets alone in those Bear Family boxes are still very detailed and full of great photos of the many different releases and I feel are essential for any true Nat fan.
     
  10. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Still one of my favorite exchanges of studio chatter ever ...
     
  11. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    Per previous notes from you, you've got the band vocal overdub as 36115-14. Should we go with the B-3 take?

    Were you able to determine when Nat recorded the spoken intros? Ralph Carmichael claims to have done them with Nat, possibly at their first session together (March 11, 1960).

    Curious that you have this one. Was it on a reel with some other song you were hunting down? It was recorded at a session for the album To Whom It May Concern, but wasn't issued until after NKC's death.

    Too bad you couldn't get these on the recent AF discs.

    I've got Take 9 for this one

    I've got 19590-1

    I've got 19589 (19584 belongs to Tex Ritter)

    This is the stereo master, yes? The take on the AF being all of 17?

    ---------------------
    Great info as usual from you, Steve! You've really made chronicling this stuff much, much easier for dopes like me. Thank you.
    Some, but not nearly all (or enough) of the take numbers are included in the Bear discographies. Few people who have handled the tapes in the past have actually given enough of a S#%T to make that info available.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
    DLant likes this.
  12. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Every day and I truly mean this, I have to wonder how ANYONE at CAPITOL or any other record label insider, who has had the pleasure of hearing Steve's SACD work on Nat King Cole, hasn't used them as the "example" of how good back catalog can be done, is beyond me? I'm not a$$kissing here, but while Steve has certainly done some great, great work through the years, I personally feel that the Nat Super Audio Discs are truly his "masterpieces"! The others involved with these releases, including Jason's hard work with noting the takes, are just as important. If I lived in L.A. and had the opportunity to work on ANY Steve Hoffman related release, in any capacity, I'd be there, as I know that it's much more than spooling up a reel on a machine, hitting the "play" button and sitting back, as 95% of the other remastering guys seem to do today.

    By the way, with all of what I just said, I still wish that the Sinatra Family would wake up, severe their ties with Concord and have Steve properly do Frank's entire REPRISE catalog on SACD, with the same love and care that he gave to those Nat SACD's and all would be right in this crazy world of ours!
     
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  13. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    When I picked up my first DCC years ago of Love is the Thing I had no idea who the hell Steve Hoffman was. But I was so thrilled and surprised to see the matrix numbers included that I remember writing to DCC and thanking them for that, and urged them to continue the practice.
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    The "matrix number" (sometimes called "master number") is the number assigned to a recorded song during the recording. That number stays with that version of the song forever. The "take number" is the version of the song that is approved by the A&R man for use on phonograph records. So a song like STARDUST by Nat Cole was assigned the matrix number 16308. The take number is after the dash. Like this: 16308-7. The seventh performance of the song was the one chosen to use for release.

    No matter where the song ends up, an album, EP or single or all, that matrix number stays with the song and is the way to FIND IT (or was) in the studio vault. Nothing was filed by song title, artist, etc. Everything was filed by matrix number. Later, when LP's came in and a bunch of songs (with their individual matrix numbers) ended up on albums, the music was filed by album number in the vault but on each tape box they still wrote the individual matrix numbers of each song. They kept the "take" number so that if a new master had to be pulled or mixed, the engineers knew which version was OK'd by the producer (A&R man).

    So, in (let's say) 1957 if one needed to find a song for duping for a German licensee, one could find the song in the vault in various places: The original session was filed under the matrix number. The version on an album was filed under the album number. The version used for the single was filed on a separate reel called a "Misc. Phono Reel" that had the song on it.

    The all-important card file (now destroyed) was the key to finding a song. In the card file, the song was filed under:

    Artist.
    Song Title.
    Matrix Number.
    Album Number.

    Realize that in those days a lot of artists recorded the same songs. I'm sure at Capitol that many artists recorded STARDUST, for example. The card file was the way to find, quickly, Nat "King" Cole's version of STARDUST.

    See?

    At other companies (Decca, USA, for example), the album masters were not filed under LP numbers but under a special number that each side of the album was assigned for life. This was called the MG number ("Microgroove Number"). So you'll notice that on your Decca LP of the Who, etc., the "MG Number" stamped in the deadwax. This was a better way (to me) to do this because record numbers come and go but the MG number stayed the same always. Not so at Capitol. When they changed the record numbers in the 1970's the system went nuts because the card file was now wrong. However, even with all of that, the MATRIX number stayed the same.

    Still, the same basic principle applied. Each and every song was assigned a matrix number that the studio, company and manufacturing plants used to make the disks.

    No one ever called out for "Stardust" by Nat Cole. They called for 16308.

    Of course, at EMI, this system went to hell when everything went to Iron Mountain Storage but that is a nightmare I prefer not to relive..

    Questions or comments? The real experts on this board who know much more than me can chime in here as well if I've missed anything..
     
    Ridin'High, Kkfan, rbichamp and 5 others like this.
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Jordan, the stereo remake of ORANGE COLORED SKY: They counted the overdub by the band as additional numbers of the take but that's not right. They did three vocal overdub tries and picked #3. So, I call it take 3.

    WILD IS LOVE project: No idea about the spoken intros. Not on the 3X that I saw so probably your info was correct.

    Jordan, the song I GOT LOVE was on an unissued project called "Sweethearts On Parade". Here is the song A&R:

    Sweethearts On Parade
    Be Still My Heart
    I Had The Craziest Dream
    This Holy Love
    You're My Thrill
    When You Belong To Me
    Baby Blue
    I Got Love
    Don't Blame Me
    There Is No Greater Love
    You Are mine


    I have the matrix numbers of all of the above songs (if you need them) but not the take numbers for most.

    Regarding MADRID, as far as I understand it, the mono version used the intro from take 17 spliced on to the body of the song which was take 18. The 3X version didn't bother to make the edit and just used all of take 18. Take 17 started out good but came to a screeching halt right around "at the airport in sunny Spain" and they started over again with the keeper take, 18.
     
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  16. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    You just solved one of the great riddles of Cole's catalog! In the fall of 1958 and in March 1960 he recorded several songs, mainly standards, that were clearly not intended for release as a single but ended up not getting released at all in his lifetime. Most met a rather ignominious fate when Dave Cavanaugh went overdub crazy between 1965-1967. The 1958 standards - arranged by Riddle - gave rise to speculation that the two men were working on an album that they just never completed for some reason. Now we know that Capitol was going to add several other great orphan tracks to those sessions to complete the album. Do you know when this proposed album was assembled, if ever?

    That's what I have too except for the mono I have the intro as being take 7 rather than 17.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
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  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Funny, for MADRID, I have 17 instead of 7.... They saved 17 as well as 18 (Hold Per LG) so I believe the insert was from 17.

    Regarding SWEETHEARTS ON PARADE, I can't recall why it even came under my nose in the first place. Ah, I remember. I was looking for DON'T BLAME ME and THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE. That's it. The ironic thing is that on the SWEETHEARTS three track reel they are REPROCESSED FOR STEREO IN DUOPHONIC because they "had no original three-track". Wow, even by 1960 they had lost a grip. Because they did have the three-tracks on those two songs as I found in the vault, well marked.

    At any rate, here is all the info I have on this SWEETHEARTS album. It was assembled, yes. Not assigned a record number, but:

    Project number 31-5198 "Sweethearts On Parade" A Takes Assembly reel. 1960.

    There is a notation on the song SWEETHEARTS ON PARADE. It is: DNU: O.D. 6-13-66, use that. Same for BABY BLUE and YOU ARE MINE. All overdubbed in 1966 and on different reels. This 1960 reel was never "reduced" to stereo.
     
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  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Thanks, but they really don't like the sound of my reissues, too old-fashioned sounding for them. Different strokes.
     
  19. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Truly sad that they feel that way, because they are missing the chance to have all of those classic recordings properly restored to their original (and intended) beauty forever!
     
  20. jtaylor

    jtaylor Forum Resident

    Location:
    RVA
    Two years and they were already losing things! By the way, I think you have become the foremost Nat Cole discographer whether you intended to or not.
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    No, I can only speak of what I did research on for a project. The true experts know about all of it. That's not me. What I've worked on I can speak for hours on, the rest is totally a guess to me.

    Jordan,

    Did you hear the studio chatter I left on I THOUGHT ABOUT MARIE on the 45 RPM version for AP? It's not on the SACD, only the vinyl.

    That (to me) is the best bit I've ever heard.
     
    paulmock and .crystalised. like this.
  22. Re.: The aborted "Sweethearts On Parade" album project...any chance of getting this released, since you know where all the session reels for it are, Steve?
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    No, just a bunch of leftovers, really. That "I Got Love" song has some pretty sour brass at the start. Makes my teeth hurt.
     
  24. Too bad there isn't enough usable material to release commercially...would be a real bonus for NKC fans here...
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Pretty sure it's all released, Luke..
     
    lukejosephchung likes this.
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