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Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vocalpoint, May 11, 2011.

  1. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    That is noise you are seeing. Back in the days of analog where is this ultra sonic 30 - 50 khz material coming from? Even the best 2 inch 16 tracks running at 30 ips might give you 30 khz. And no 2 inch 24 track can record anywhere near 30 khz. Let alone 40 or 50 khz. The mixing boards didn't go above 25 khz. And the microphones they used never went above 23 khz. The microphones they used on: snares, toms and guitars started trailing off after 16 khz.

    The only way to cut at 50 khz was to half speed master. But that would get you 36 khz maybe 40 khz tops. The top cutting frequency back in 1975 was 18 khz. Half speed mastering would double you cutting frequency to 36 khz may 40 khz but not 50 khz. Motown was half speed mastering their singles up until 1969. But all the multitracks from the 1960's rolled off sharly after 15 khz.

    Even if they could cut up to 40 or 50 khz they would be noting to hear. And if there was you can't hear at those frequencies. And if you could your headphones/ speakers amplifier can't produce frequencies that high. And most phone preamps don't go above 25 khz. Let alone 30 or 40 khz.

    Unless the record is half speed mastered, 18 khz, maybe 20 khz is the most you are gonna get.
     
    ghost rider, Brodnation, Duan and 3 others like this.
  2. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Yea, it's weird. It is just noise. This is the problem with reading graphs and data from software. There is pro software that can differentiate between noise and music but the software ain't cheap. Ignore anything above 22 khz.
     
    ghost rider likes this.
  3. Didn't quad LP's have audio up to 45K to get the quad effect?

    Also, The tape machines wouldn't have an abrupt cutoff at 15K would they? Wouldn't it continue fading away on the tape until it wasn't detected?
     
    ghost rider likes this.

  4. I think this is why BrillantBob cuts off everything above 20K -22K. I remember him saying it was noise. Didn't understand it until now
     
    ghost rider likes this.
  5. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    Speaking of Quad.

    With my needle drops I usually run a High Pass Filter at 30Hz, however with some more modern albums (from late 70's onwards) I'll run the High Pass at 25 or 20Hz. I also run a Low Pass at 30000Hz.

    I have needle dropped a Quad version of Dark Side of the Moon. It still sounds great in stereo and IMO is a better mix, more air. I'm currently in the process of cleaning it up and I'm wondering if I should be using different High Pass and Low Pass Filters than the usual?
     
  6. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Yes, with the CD4 system. The back/front difference was modulated on a 30 kHz subcarrier similar to FM stereo, separately for left and right. But this was achieved using a special stylus during recording and playback. You cannot deduce that regular stereo records have audio above 20 kHz. BTW the actual audio content of CD4 records only had a frequency range of 20 - 15 kHz.
     
  7. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    What quad system does it use? Do you actually decode it and digitise 4 discrete channels, or do you digitise it as is?
     
  8. Apparently the folks at MFSL cut a lacquer with a frequency topping 122kz.

    "In July, this system was found to have recorded a signal of astoundingly high frequency onto a lacquer. Stan sent me the relevant details, and I did an independent calculation of the frequency that agreed with his own: 122kHz when played at 33 1/3 rpm. Yowza!"

    mastering
     
    ghost rider likes this.
  9. Brodnation

    Brodnation The Future Never Dies because Tomorrow Never Knows

    Location:
    Canada
    I don’t think any copies of Dark Side were pressed in CD-4 so you should be fine.
     
  10. Stan94

    Stan94 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris, France
    So I should be fine if I needledrop at 24/88.2, right?
    Is it possible to test the output of a turntable? I mean, the right channel is like 1db louder than the left channel, and I'd like to know if it's the cartridge (tried with different ones, same result) or the TT that's dying on me? Or is it normal? My Motu M2 soundcard is here, working good, now I'm just waiting for Technics to deliver my 1200GR....
     
  11. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    88.2 is perfect if you plan to make CDs or otherwise convert to 44.1. I doubt anyone can hear the difference between 88.2 and 96. As far as the right channel my TT did that and I figured out how to set the azimuth and it is almost perfect on most records. I got a test record and used a free online oscilloscope program to set it and ironically if you eyeball the headshell/cartridge it looks tilted to the left but my channels are spot on equal.
     
    john morris, Grant and arisinwind like this.
  12. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    How do you effect that in IzotopeRX7? Thank you.

    Next question. 88.2 or 96kHz? I used to record in 24 bit at 96kHz. But after reading BrilliantBob's thoughts and possibly John's, I switched to 88.2kHz. One or the other or both said 96kH was a marketing gimmick. Can I get a detailed explanation on what is best to use and why.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  13. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    What test record, what oscilloscope program? Thank you.
     
  14. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    I just got a good deal on a used Fozgometer - can't wait to get it!
     
  15. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    equally good you still need a test record. I use " the ultimate test record" most any will do you need a 100% right and 100% left test tone and you adjust the azimuth till the cross talk on the opposing channel is the lowest. You will find there is a happy medium where both channels are equal.

    BendBound I'll have to get the program title later it was 8+ years ago and doing a quick search only goes back to 2018 on the forum.
     
  16. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    I captured it as stereo (2 channels) with a stereo cart. Its the SQ system, which is a Matrix (4-2-4) format.
     
    anorak2 and gabbleratchet7 like this.
  17. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    In my experience its worth capturing at 192kHz, I have found that I get better results at 192kHz than 96kHz. Unless you're not going to process after capture, best to capture at 32 (floating) bits.

    If you intend to also make a CD, then capture at 176.4kHZ. Better for resampling down to 44.1kHz.

    If your target is a CD/redbook only, then capture at 32(floating) 44.1 kHz and avoid any resampling.

    After processing, if you're keeping a Hi Res version, then use a standard TPD dither to dither from 32 (float) to 24 bits. If you're going for redbook, then A/B different dither settings, to dither from 32 (float) to 16 bits. Any dithering must be the last thing you do in the process.
     
    arisinwind likes this.
  18. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    Interesting. I'm seeing the activity after applying a Low Pass at 30kHz with a 12dB/oct curve.

    Its not a haze, but clearly defined spikes. I have tried to post an image of the waveform, without success. Can anyone tell me how to post a picture of a waveform from Izotope RX5?
     
  19. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Oh OK. The SQ system does not use a 30 kHz subcarrier, it simply encodes back/front differences out of phase similar to Dolby Surround. The frequency range is the same as any ordinary stereo record.
     
    Brodnation, arisinwind and marcob1963 like this.
  20. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Where is Bob from Motown when we need him?
    Oh well.......No, it would not be a sharp cut off. Analog is not digital. It would be a steep fall off. Ever see the frequency response of a two head $200 cassette above 17 khz all the way to 23 khz? Like that. Put it this way up until 1970 the Ampex test tapes only had test tones from 30 - 15 000 hz. So all the machines could only be calibrated for frequencies from 30 - 15 000 hz.
    So no, it would not be - 2db at 15 khz and then BANG BOOM "What happened?!" - 20 db at 16 khz. But pretty much after 16 khz there isn't any real usubale frequencies from pre 1970 recordings. This makes NR real easy on these recordings. Kill all frequencies above 16 khz. It is all noise anyway. Or so they believe......
     
    arisinwind and anorak2 like this.
  21. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario

    They cut the records at half speed so that a 30 khz could he cut at only 15 khz.
     
    anorak2 likes this.
  22. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Amazing! Everyone must read this link.
     
    arisinwind likes this.
  23. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Back in the 1980's going from 48 to 44.1 khz was a real problem. Today going from 96 to 44.1 khz doesn't create the sonic issue it used to back in the day. But if you plan to a make a CD at some point out of your files 88.2 or 176.4 khz is your best bet.
     
  24. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Agreed. If you are serious about vinyl then you need a test record.
     
  25. Stan94

    Stan94 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris, France
    Well I don't plan on making CDs, but I think it'll be better downsampling from 88.2 to 44.1 in case there's no music above 22050khz.
     

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