Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Greats posts, thank you all.
John, wouldn't you remove some of the turntable rumble with a HP filter? Brilliant Bob shared a method to get rid of rumble by inverting the 0-30Hz frequencies. RX has a setting for rumble too, but it starts at 50Hz I think. Grant doesn't touch anything above 18Hz if I remember correctly. So, what gives, from a professional point of view? And if I get rid of rumble, when should I do it? Before or after declicking?

 

I'm not John, but I'll chime in.

In RX, if you switch the frequency scale to "extended log", it shows all of the sub 50hz grunge a little clearer. Using this method, you can see a line where the actual low frequencies of the record end, and the noise of the vinyl begins. Using the frequency selection tool, you can place it where the line is and take note of what frequency that's at. I've noticed 28 and 34 are pretty common, usually most don't have anything below 25hz. I've had some acoustic records have nothing below 65hz. I take the high pass EQ and start rolling off at this frequency, usually using a 24dB or 48dB slope. The rest of the rumble and groove noise can be taken care of using a noise profile and noise removal.

I prefer to remove what's needed to be removed per record rather than just a blanket 20hz high pass filter. Usually that leaves some noise behind that doesn't belong there.

 

While we wait for John's input.....I remove the rumble when I do noise reduction. The sample between tracks has rumble along with surface noise and system noise. I reduce them all at the same time.

You can use a HP filter. I usually apply noise reduction after click repair. I don't know why. I just do.

Someone mentioned earlier about different audio programs using different algorithms. I have several programs and if I am having trouble with noise reduction or some other aspect I try a different program and see how it's function does. I usually use Sound Forge 12 for most of my work but use Izotope RX 7 Standard, Magix Audio and Music Lab, and Audacity for when Soundforge can't deliver the results I'm looking for.

 

I always split the songs first before doing anything myself as well. One reason for this is I like to run a dynamic range report before doing any work. This serves as a reference point for me. I like to compare this original report to the final one I create after cleaning the rip and normalizing for volume.

If several seconds of silence exist between tracks, I almost always fade out as opposed to doing blank silence. I feel this sounds more natural and also blends in nicely with the beginning of the next track (which will have a fade in).

 

For anyone that is curious the lowest note on the musical scale is C0 (16 hz). A big church organ will have bass pedals. Push the lowest bass pedal to your left. That will be C0 (16 hz). That is the fundamental note. The upper harmonics will go up to the lower midrange, and the lower harmonics of the C0 bass pedal can reach down to 10 hz. Can 10 hz be cut to vinyl? Good luck with that......

The lowest note on a five string bass is 34 hz. I think it is B1. But don't quote me on it. Everytime you drop to the same note an octave lower you cut the frequency in half. So the next B an octave lower would be at 17 hz.

There is a 118 key, ten octave piano made by one company. The range is C0 to B8.
Only $250 000 USD. The idea was that you could play those Bach organ pieces without the need to transpose. Jesus!

Low cut filter at 30 hz is a good idea for mastering in needle drops. But it is rare to come across anything lower than 30 hz let alone 20 hz but it does happen. Unless you have an expensive cartridge it will have a hard time tracking 16 - 30 hz. Even if there is substantial low bass it won't sound very good because it will be tracked poorly. Most Rock/Pop records will not have anything below 30 hz. 25 hz is a good marker.

 

Definitely agree on a cleaning process. A wet vacuum machine does it best.

For recording I still use Audition 3.0 to record both sides (24/96) and save as a wav. I then use an old product called click fix lite for gentle de-clicking (it's a plugin for Audition) both sides. Each song gets broken out and usually do one second fade-ins/one second fade-outs. Run a group waveform normalize then save all. Foobar to convert wav to flac, then tag it all and import into Audirvana. Done.

 

Well I do have a Pro-Ject vacuum cleaner. So that goes first, of course. They say in the manual that you can get better results by heating the cleaning fluid up to 40°C, I haven't tried that yet. My TT is a Technics 1210MK7 with a ATVM540ML, with 20-27kHz response.
When should I apply the HP filter? After declicking and possibly NR? Or do I HP and then NR?
I don't normalise at the end. I keep 2-3db headroom, sometimes I reduce transients manually when they peak way above the rest of the music.

 

We all have different goals when we do needledrops and not all goals are appreciated by other people. Some people do a lot of processing, some do very little. I find the vast majority of needledrops sound pretty good. Some sound like the LP without processing, some sound like the CD, some sound like something else. When someone asks for an evaluation of their needledrop I listen for distortions, artifacts, unbalanced channels, weird stuff. If there are clicks I'll mention them but to some folks clicks aren't all that bad. To others they are demon noise from beyond. I have needledrops from other people and I find them very acceptable and listenable.

As to how people achieve their goals with needledrops all of us have our methods and they aren't always the same. I don't use high pass and low pass filters. I leave sound in the lower and upper reaches. I rarely use some of the more exotic methods of noise reduction. I find the grab a sample, set some parameters and let the program do the work is fine for me. Some folks EQ their recordings. I tend to let my recordings go without EQ changes. This doesn't mean I never use these tools. I just tend not to.

I guess the bottomline is "To each their own." The vast majority of needledrop samples I've heard here sound real good and reflect the hard work, knowledge and talents of those creating them. Some I saved. If it sounds good to me, I'm happy.

 

THE INFAMOUS MORRIS VINYL LECTURE
If you wet vaccum cleaned your record properly, play them back on proper audiophile turntable with a good cartridge (MC or high put MC) and adjusted your vertical tracking angle (VTA) appropriately (15 - 25 degrees) 95 % of your needle drop work is done. You can't
do a needle drop with a $120, 1983 Dual turntable (I use to own one) and then expect some magic software to pull the detail out. Removing the noise, hiss and such cannot restore lost detail your needle and cart couldn't pick up in the first place.

"...Typically, there is an easy standardized method that relates to the degree of angle used by almost all cutting masters. The Vertical Tracking Angle was not always standardized. But since the stereo disc was launched, the angle was defined at 15˚ and was changed in the nineteen seventies to 20˚. That is why the Ortofon SL-15 became SL-20....."
- From PS Audio.

So for those stereo records cut in the 1960's adjust your VTA to 15 degrees. For 1970 and later 20 - 25 degrees. VTA is often overlooked.

Many Pop record cut between 1975 - 1985 were cut at 24 degrees. But this might be urban legend.

The idea of the linear tracking turntable was to play the record the way it was cut. Mmmm....Yea....That idea really caught on. To this day Lynn, Rega, Orcale, Project only make linear tracking turntables. Oh no wait...They don't. It was a good idea in theory in practice....
The linear tracking turntable had it's advantages. Anyone own one?

 

Excellent points. Interesting.

Back in 2010 our studio was given the job of remastering a solo album of a well know artist. The DAT master was vile! Just like the 1988 CD it was super bright and bass shy. More so on the DAT master. I ran it through our Manely Massive Passive mastering all tube passive EQ. (Only $7000 CAN at Long & Mcquade)

- 2 db @ 12 khz @ Q of 0.5.
- 1.5 db @ 3 khz @ Q of 1.
+ 1.0 db @ 500 hz @ Q of 1.
+ 1 db @ 250 hz @ Q of 1.
+ 2 db @ 60 hz @ Q of 1.
+ 4 db @ 40 hz @ Q of 2.


Nah! It still sucked. The master was just mixed badly. Or rather it was mixed on bad monitors or on monitors that were to close to the wall. Did my EQ settings help? Yep, like the way a shot of Morphine helps when your on fire. Better than nothing. Unfortunately if you do too much you change the tonal balance of the album and then you are up the creek without a paddle.

 

A properly aligned and calibrated analog 2 inch 24 track tape machine sounds amazing. No software can reproduce it. A properly cut record made from a master tape sounds amazing. But analog is a pain in the butt. Cutting is an art as much as it is a science. And keeping a 24 track tape machine working at peak performance is like looking after a spoiled child.

Digital - what goes in comes out. Real simple.
I love the sound of analog but what a pain.

 

I take as much time as I can to fix anomalies. I do my processing in 24 or 32-bit, so there is no data damage done.

I cannot tolerate clicks, not even the little ity-bity ones. I will take weeks to clean up clicks if I have to.

 

I transferred Dylan's RSD BOTT Test Pressing. I didn't hear much between 0-30hz but thumps. Likewise above 15khz, no music. So, am I correct to assume that a 12db HP from 25hz and a 24db LP from 18khz (or 24db from 15 to 18khz and cut above) wouldn't harm the music and remove rumble as well?

 

I think that will work fine. Give it a try and if not, adjust accordingly.

 

So I did what I said I would. I like the result, only for the soft rattling noise that's still there between tracks on side 2. I faded to silence there, otherwise I would have left that alone. Also did my 80's German A Hard Day's Night which is a narrower and hotter cut than the UK disc. Sounds great too, silent vinyl even between the tracks. I was on a roll, I faded the intertracks to silence. It works.
How do you get rid of that rattling vinyl noise. Are the grooves dirty or is there something else going on?

 

The noise is dirt in the grooves. More or a different method of cleaning is needed

 

I heated Wash-it to 40°C and it spread more easily. I must buy a soft vinyl brush to clean the grooves before I vaccum.

 

What? You mean the cartridge doesn't go down to 16 hz (C0)? Toss it out! Toss it out!

Seriously though, seems like you have a good set up there.

 

A good wet vaccum cleaner should get all of that stuff out. You just have to wash it twice. But if it works then it works. The quieter you can play back your vinyl the more detail you can pick up.

 

My sister, Rose who has a business transferring vinyl (many pre RIAA, Ahh the fun!) says you are right on the mark. Warped records produce 7 hz noises. Another reason to low cut.

 

Thank you John for your advice. I really appreciate it. A long time ago I had access to the Beatles MoFi box and I was amazed to be able to hear the difference between tape and leader tape. It made cleaning intertracks much easier, and my TT was not as good as my current Technics (however bad that one is in your book). Now maybe I'm over-sensitive to noise, but I want a clean result, tape hiss on the tracks is good but not between the tracks, etc.

 

I did a few needle drops back in the day, but my chain has fallen out of date. I'm hoping to get back on the horse soon. For fun tonight I hooked up turntable -> preamp -> line in on a 2008 mac using some cheap cable I found. This is what the 1kHz mono track looks like from the Analogue Productions test LP. I didn't expect it to look good, but this looks pretty bad?

Maybe tomorrow I'll dust off the windows 7 computer with the e-mu 0404... just so I won't feel bad springing for a new ADC.

 

The e-mu 0404 is a powerhouse. Since the latest update to Windows 10 (20H2) fixed compatibility issues with my woefully outdated discrete video card, I wonder if I can get the 0404 working again with a complete reinstall. Frankly, using the onboard Realtek audio sucks.

Right now, I am debating on whether to get a new Gigabyte motherboard with the Creative Audio "Amp Up", or just get a regular one and get the Scarlet 2i2 like I have been planning for over a year to do. I'm likely to just get a regular board because I cannot find one bit of feedback or tests for the Amp Up's Audiophile recording properties. Gamers are the only people who seem to be concerned with motherboards, and all they care about is headphone playback of their games. I don't do games.

I need a 1200 socket with the Z490 chipset, and I won't go cheap.

 

Grado says their Grado Gold 3 cartridge has a 10Hz-60kHz frequency range. Now if the frequency range of vinyl records is 20Hz-18kHz, what's the use of the extra frequencies?

 

I use the E-MU 0404, its fantastic. However, I don't think they are any drivers for Windows 10, I'm still running Windows 7.