Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vocalpoint, May 11, 2011.

  1. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Doesn't matter. If you do your needledrop at hi-rez, you will have hi-rez. Just don't SRC or dither.
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Some of us are just anal perfectionists.
     
    goodiesguy likes this.
  3. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    Hi Pete,

    I actually padded the CD file to 24 bit then upsampled to 192 Khz using iZotope before doing the comparison. But the same results occurs when attempting this test with my genuine native 24-192 fully digital material.

    I really only mentioned the CD test because it is one that anyone with a PC can do and for some reason low resolution vinyl transcriptions seem to be popular. The main reason I did the comparison was because I was unhappy with the sonic results I was achieving using the Clickrepair demo and I was trying to understand why I was hearing differences in those parts of the music unaffected by clicks or pops. I still feel the CD test was a valid one because in an ideal situation, any program intended to specifically erradicate vinyl clicks and pops ought to process such a file in a way that the output is completely indistinguishable from the input (since technically there is nothing to do to it).

    Unfortunately Clickrepair "failed" this test because it was possible for me to distinguish the original and output files via double blind testing using Foobar, whereas I failed the same test using the Sony Click and Crackle remover that is packaged in Noise Reduction 2.0 (though I did the latter test at 96 khz for the reasons I mentioned).

    As for vinyl needledrops versus SACD, the problem is that there is absolutely nothing on SACD that I am remotely interested in that I do not already own on SACD. The current state of the music market is such that I either cease collecting music completely or buy vinyl. There are more vinyl releases on average every week that interest me than releases in other formats combined over an entire year.

    I would much rather purchase high resolution downloads, but the market has forced my hand. On the other hand, what I am interested in are in all cases of top-notch remasterings by the best in the business and (excluding Classic Records 200 gram), the pressing quality is consistent enough to the point where listening to my processed needledrops is pretty much the same as listening to high resolution digital in any case.
     
  4. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    I defy anyone to produce a piece of vinyl that does not have any clicks...
     
    vinylsolution likes this.
  5. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    The intent of this thread doesn't matter?
     
  6. Vocalpoint

    Vocalpoint Forum Resident Thread Starter


    Actually - the topic was specifically to discuss/share what tools/techniques you use to digitize your vinyl and what order you do them in. Settings and other cool info are a definite bonus. I have learned a ton already.

    However - I never specified where you may take your final output - that is up to you. For my workflow - I wouldn't be burning any needledrops to disc...my target format will be 24/96 FLAC with possible "mobile" copies created from those masters for iPod usage....

    VP
     
  7. JonP

    JonP Active Member

    I did try the Goldenjacks and I did not like them as much. They were pretty much as sonically transparent to me as the NHT, but I really did not like physically extending the RCA coupling. Mechanically it just worried me having such a long, rigid connection to the RCA jacks on cables that are quite short and have to bend around as they do. Additionally, the jacks are quite thick and this made it difficult to secure the connections - you have to loosen the barrel, push the connector then tighten the barrel back up, but the two barrels were rubbing against each other, making it difficult to properly secure the ground shield connections.

    The other benefit of the NHT is of course variable recording level control, though in my case I record in 24 bit and have the level permanently preset conservatively so that I only go over -6dBFS in very rare cases (it is harder to apply the "blanket" rule of never, ever going over -6dBFS with classical, because of the huge dynamic range and the unpredicability of the modulation levels in audiophile vinyl recordings).

    I like to capture brand new vinyl the very first time round as I agree with Barry Diament that there is a sonic degradation in the very high frequencies after the first play. So I have the attenuation on the NHT set such that the recording level is fairly conservative, thereby eliminating any possibility of clipping on an unfamiliar disk.

    I should add that I have read some criticism regarding channel balance on the NHT as the attenuation level increases (some people say it is a problem, others don't experience it). I have mine set at around -8dB and the channel balance is perfect. I have not tried it at extreme levels of attenuation though.
     
  8. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Unless you and I mean something entirely different by "clicks" then I've got shelves of records that are click free.
     
    stax o' wax likes this.
  9. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    Shoot up a clip of the beginning and ending 60 seconds of one
     
  10. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Are you talking about the run-in and fade-out or the actual music itself?
     
  11. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Rock 'n Roll !!!

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Anal and/or perfectionists... :sigh::laugh:
     
  12. 2002ss335

    2002ss335 Member

    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    (The E-MU 1212 inverts phase)

    I had the 1212 and now have the 1616 and this is the first time I have seen someone else note this.

    From my listening I think the polarity is being reversed during playback. I have several 24/96 downloads along with my vinyl rips and they both seem to sound better when I use the "Phase Invert" in the Patchmix software during playback.

    Have you or anyone else determined where the reversal is occurring?

    Regards,
    Todd
     
  13. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    I hear you. For me, classical music on vinyl is pretty frustrating in general. The low level surface noise that doesn't bother me at all on pop, rock and even jazz recordings is much more noticeable and distracting with classical music. I have very few classical LPs--even "audiophile" ones--that I can say I am entirely satisfied with. I can really understand why so many classical music enthusiasts were so quick to adopt CD, while the rest of the market was slower to do so.

    SACD is great for classical music, but there is indeed a problem with finding new releases. Sadly, there are fewer and fewer new classical music releases every year, and mostly what we get from audiophile companies is reissues of older recordings (many of which are quite good both from a performance and sonic standpoint). But it is a sad state of affairs in general.

    Anyway, it sounds like you gave CR a fair shake, and it didn't work for your purposes. In the context I'm using it, I've been very pleased to say the least. But that is the beauty of free demos. I would not argue with anyone who gives something and honest try and doesn't like it. But I see a lot of comments on this thread that seem to be more about some theoretical or ideological objection to click removal in general, and I suspect those objections are not based very much in real world experience or comparative listening.
     
  14. klownschool

    klownschool Forum Resident

    I'm really enjoying this thread. It's great to see that others are as AR(anal-retentive) and passionate about fidelity and of course the music.

    I can't speak for others but I have heard pbthal's work. If you have not heard his rips you are missing out. Top notch.

    Rick
     
  15. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    music..do you have Dark Side of the moon or Crime of the Century...post the first 60 seconds of either
     
  16. bord

    bord Member

    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    This is news to me, too and I use my Emu 1212m daily for needledropping. Can someone in the know elaborate a bit?

    Also, where in Audition can you invert the phase?
     
  17. jfall

    jfall Forum Resident

    Thanks again Jon, very useful information for me, I had not thought of the issues you experienced with the passive inline attenuators. The flexibility of a true volume control seems much more valuable.

    I am left with one more question, if anyone knows the answer. In my case I will have to attenuate the low level (mV) signal coming from the table before the pre-amp.

    Is there an issue with using a passive volume control on such a low level signal? i.e. would even the slightest attenuation 'wipe out' a mV level signal, or is the attenuation proportional and independent of absolute level, as in, a 6 dB drop will cut voltage by half without consideration of how low the signal is to begin with?
     
  18. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    A digital recording device that does not have input level controls ahead of the A-D conversion is like a car that does not have a steering wheel (or perhaps more to the point, brakes).

    I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would sell such a device, much less purchase one.

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com

    P.S. A recording device that inverts polarity by default is in my opinion, broken.
     
  19. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I don't own "Crime Of The Century" and I'm not sure where my "Dark Side Of The Moon" is, but here are three starts and a finish from some records I transferred for someone earlier today.

    I recorded them as DSD files, down converted to 16/44 using Korg's Audiogate software, burned a CD, cloned the shorter clips using a HHB Burnit, ripped that CD to 320 Kbps mp3s using Media Player, there's been no processing of any kind.

    DivShare File - 01 Track 1.mp3

    DivShare File - 02 Track 2.mp3

    DivShare File - 03 Track 3.mp3

    DivShare File - 04 Track 4.mp3
     
  20. Lownote30

    Lownote30 Bass Clef Addict

    Location:
    Nashville, TN, USA
    It's better to record at hi-rez if you're going to do anything to the audio file with a computer. There's less damage to the audio that way. If dithering is done correctly, there's nothing wrong with doing that.
     
  21. TONEPUB

    TONEPUB Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Tons of it here....
     
  22. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    Track 1 was pretty clean but Track 2 has clicks right at the beginning...did not listen to the others

    Metal albums and high energy stuff you can get away with..soft passages..not a chance
     
  23. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    Lets hear it.

    I can take a brand new record and there will be clicks, and I have a pretty detailed cleaning routine
     
  24. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    I guess you're a lot more fussy than me, yes there is the slightest "click" in one channel on track 2, but's it's hardly above the noise floor and that's using headphones, what I'd call a "click" is something much more audible, as loud or louder than the music.

    Nearly forgot, that record is 29 years old.
     
  25. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright pbthal

    Location:
    Ca
    I may be more fussy but a click is still a click and there are more then one in your samples. If you or others do not mind them that is great...but this "my records are so clean there aren't any clicks" does not fly in the real world
     

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