Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vocalpoint, May 11, 2011.

  1. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    On the contrary, the effort is minimal and ensures you get the most horizontal signal available.
     
  2. For the mono recordings, I sum the L & R channels during recording which seems to remove a lot of distortion and other surface defects. This is kind of like when the record companies would fold a stereo recording down to mono, but that would also bury stuff that you would want to hear and could hear in the actual stereo recording. There are some recordings that are best heard in mono due to a simple recording with just a singer and his own accompaniment, like the early Bob Dylan Columbia albums.
     
  3. DPM

    DPM Senior Member

    Location:
    Nevada, USA
    Almost two years ago I began digitizing my vinyl for the first time, but I wasn't liking the results. So I halted my needle-dropping. What followed was months of vinyl system tweaking/adjustment and a couple of key upgrades in the form of a better turntable and a moving coil cartridge. I think I'm there now.

    Last week I resumed the digital transfers and did captures of eight albums.

    Steely Dan - Aja (Cisco pressing)
    Riot - Fire Down Under (Audio Fidelity vinyl mastered by Kevin Gray)
    John Fogerty - Centerfield (The original pressing w/Zantz Can't Dance)
    Elton John - 17/11/70+ (Record Store Day double LP)
    Three Dog Night - Coming Down Your Way
    Walter Egan - Fundamental Roll (promo WLP)
    Esperanza Spaulding - Emily's D+evolution
    Utopia - A Different P.O.V. (Record Store Day blue vinyl)

    Here's some pics of my dubbing session for the Riot album.

    Technics 1200G/Lyra Kleos/Parasound JC3+
    [​IMG]

    Benchmark ADC1 doing the digits (24/88.2)
    [​IMG]

    Amarra Vinyl
    [​IMG]

    I still have to edit the files. I'm fighting a bad cold right now, so that will have to wait until I don't feel like I have cotton in my ears.
     
  4. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Yes, a good thought there! The summing can be done after the transfer. Actually I prefer it that way, as sometimes that "seat of the pants" decision isn't the best decision. At least with the raw tracks in "stereo" many more options exist to fix any defects in the waveform.

    Cartridge alignment is critical, more critical than we may think. Channel balance can be affected by this, and other degrading effects. When the alignment isn't spot on, the high frequencies begin to sound phasey, and may roll off a little. The sound is the equivalent of azimuth error on a tape deck. The difference signal is also affected in both stereo mode and mono mode.. out of phase info gets cancelled in mono.

    Most of the background noise is difference signal. This includes hiss, any ticks and crackles, and distortion caused by groove wear. In order to reduce these negative artifacts, the sum signal should maintain its integrity and full frequency response. If it doesn't then the noise will not be reduced as much, and we have signal loss too.

    A simple listening test can help confirm if your cartridge is in alignment. This can be aided by turning up the treble for this test. Listen to a mono pristine record in stereo mode, then switch to mono. The high frequencies should remain the same, no drop in level, and not phasey sounding. If there's a pronounced drop in the highs, your cartridge is out of alignment. <<< OR >>> the antiskate is off, and the cantilever off-centered as the record plays. As a part of the setup and adjustment of the anti-skate, it's VERY important to observe the cantilever as you drop the stylus on the record, that it remains centered.

    Another way to check cartridge alignment, transfer a mono track (the inner band) to Audacity. (or other program) If the waveform on the left channel does not line up exactly with the right, the cartridge is off. Look at the high frequencies for this.

    All of this may seem too technical and too much bother, but in practice your needle-drops will be more professional sounding, and realistically enjoyed for a very long time! :)

    edit: careful with the mono record test, as sometimes the mastering can be bad.. a tape source may have azimuth error. Errors can exist from a stereo cutter and a two channel mono source tape. This may also result in a bad sounding pressing. (a prudent mastering engineer would use only one channel from the deck, and line the head to tape on that one channel) So, even this test isn't fool proof, but it will tell you something when every record tested shows the same waveform misalignment... this suggests it must be the cartridge alignment. Older records cut with a mono cutter should be reliable for this test.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  5. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    As of now I only have a handful of mono records. I have been setting my preamp to mono and recording to a single channel. After read the last several posts I think it may be better to just record it normally to a stereo track and listen to each track and pick the quietest track and save it to a single channel file for needle drop playback.
     
  6. Stefan

    Stefan Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Don't discount summing the two tracks. I've generally found that to be a far better approach to mono needledrops. If your equipment is properly set up, there are rarely issues with phasing, etc. The reduction in the vinyl background whooosh is really stunning with summing to the point where you have the music emerging from a CD-like black background. On the other hand, sometimes choosing a channel from the two can be the best method. The best approach is to try both with each needledrop and listen to how each sounds.
     
  7. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    On the contrary, it’s more effort than it’s worth, i.e. in practice I couldn’t tell the difference and therefore even minimal effort - and it’s more than “minimal” IMO because it’s iterative - is pointless.
     
  8. Tuck1977

    Tuck1977 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Hi a question on needle drops with the Tascam DR40 if I may.
    What xlr to phono leads are folks using. I have been using a fairly long pair and certainly not expensive pair.
    In the back of my mind everytime I do a recording I am thinking is this the best I can get, if I change my leads for a shorter better quality pair would I be hearing the ££ I spent.
     
  9. Yamaha Denon KLH Nut

    Yamaha Denon KLH Nut Somewhere Lost in The Music

    Location:
    Manchester NH
    Here's My Current process:

    Cleaning: Spin Clean > Distilled Water Rinse > Dry With Micro Fiber Towel > Air Dry > Static Dust Brush @ Play/Rec Time.
    Turntable: Denon DP-300F
    Cartadge: Ortofon 2M Red
    Phono Pre: Denon DP-300F
    Connection to ADC: Stock Denon RCA Cable
    ADC: Tascam US-1x2
    Connection To PC: Stock Tascam USB Cable
    Rec. Program: VinylStudio V9.0.7
    Bit Rate: 24 Bit/96 kHz
    Editing: Insert Track Markers for Cue File, No Silence Removed from the Recording (Lead in & Run out Grooves & between tracks still intact)
    Click/NR: Automatic Click Repair via VinylStud0 set @ Defult settings,
    Final Codec: Flac 24 Bit/96 kHz w Cue per side for Backup & Split to Individual Flac 24bit/96kHz Tracks for each Daily Use.

    Probably not the Best setup for doing rips but it gets good enjoyable results for use on my Fiio X1 & Audio Technica MSR7 Headphones for on the go or in the car.
     
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  10. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I put RCA adaptors on the recorder and then use short RCA cables from rec out to recorder. Phono in is going to a Yamaha amp first.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  11. Here's what I currently am doing:
    1). If a virgin, unplayed record, I put it on my belt-driven turntable.
    2). A couple of rotations each side with the generic ant-static carbon fiber brush that everyone puts their name on.(It actually adds static electricity to a vinyl record)
    3). While the record spins, blast it with canned air.
    4). Record the record to external hard drive as wav files, using the appropriate cartridge/stylus for the record. Currently I have been using: Shure N97xe, M24H, M78S or Pickering NP/AC.
    5). Clean the record on my VPI RCM(which removes all static electricity).
    6). If the record was in a Mofi, QRP or similar inner-sleeve, I toss it because it also generates static electricity, and place the record in a new white acid-free paper inner-sleeve.
    7). Place the record, in it's new inner-sleeve, back in the plastic outer sleeve next to the cover.
    After doing a series of recordings, like the Analogue Productions 45 rpm boxed set "Infinite" by The Doors, I then:
    8). Run each side through a track-splitter program.
    9). View the split tracks, graphically, listening to and noting any ticks or other abnormalities, while splitting the individual tracks in the proper places.
    10). Re-doing the recordings, if necessary. I have to pay special attention to QRP pressings due to their propensity to be pressed off-center. Manually centering the record on the turntable is often necessary.
    11). Run the tracks through a depopper program, if necessary.
    12). Name all the tracks after putting them in their appropriate order in the folder.
    Hard drives fill up quickly as I have been saving the finished recordings as well as the original file. I have been burning the original file recordings as data to DVD-R's to free up space and also burning a duplicate disc. Currently, I have burned 350 DVD-R's.
     
  12. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I hate putting used brushes on a new LP. In my mind it cross contaminates the new record with anything that might still be on the brush.

    And that is not including what happens when one flips over the record to do the other side. The dust on the platter matt from the dirty side of a record is now touching the LP side that was just cleaned.

    That is why I avoid all platters and all used brushes what cleaning records. It just contaminates the LPs with previous grime.

    I get the record wet with water and diluted dish soap with water. And do my trade mark cleaning technique (with hand) and then dry with a clean terry cloth cotten towel. All dust, dirt, and paper lint goes down the drain never to touch another record ever again.

    I tell you something interesting, when I am cleaning a record side, I sometimes come across and can feel a tiny pebble like piece of junk in the groove. Like food or a chunk of tiny dirt. And it's so embedded into the groove that no brush could ever dislodge it. It takes my finger nail to scrape in the direction of the groove - and finally I can feel it dislodge.

    I've seen cleaned LPs with a loud pop and a skip with this kind of problem. And I was able to fix it with hand cleaning and a finger nail scrape.

    So besides the contamination problem with brushes there is that bit of dirt no brush can feel or remove even if it could.
     
  13. marka

    marka Forum Resident

    I use two different cork mats, one for dirty sides, one for clean - that easily avoids the issue that you raise.
     
  14. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Used brushes are also a no-go with me.

    I clean minty new looking items as well as very dusty things from thrift stores.

    Just this weekend got a mint condition Charlie Pride LP on RCA with stickered shrink wrap still on jacket. Contains the hit single "Kiss an Angel Good Morning" this particular album is not on my music server.

    Anyway the dust was pretty bad on this LP. I'd never use a brush on it that would be used again. This one is a dish water treatment item. Came out really clean. But I've not yet played it. This era of RCA can be hit or miss. Thank god for ClickRepair!
     
  15. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I raised a couple or three issues if you read my whole post, not just one. The "potato chip factor" is a most important one to overcome. Brushes are the other. Matts being only one.
     
  16. marka

    marka Forum Resident

    I understand - I addressed only one. Intentionally.

    I’m not sure I understand the “potato chip factor”, but for “brushes”, I use the MoFi that has a pad, and which I can wash as much as I want.

    And frankly, I don’t use dish soap because I’m not convinced that it’s good for the vinyl.
     
  17. Brushes can be cleaned, and mine are. After using the brush, as I stated, I blow off the record with canned air while the record rotates. I then play that side of the record. After I am done with that side, I flip the record over and do the same.
    After I am done with the record, I clean it on my VPI RCM, which is a wet clean and vacuum dry. Cleaning and vacuum brushes are kept clean. Cork covered cleaning turntable is blown off with canned air before any record side touches it.
    You should NEVER EVER touch the playing surface of a record with a bare hand. No matter how clean your hands are, they have oil on them.
    Using tap water to clean a record is not good because it contains minerals, chlorine and other contaminants from the plumbing. Only distilled or filtered purified water should be used.
    Most commercial record cleaning solutions can contain alcohol and dish soap, Dawn being the most popular. I can easily smell the soap and alcohol.
    Another thing that is added to the commercial cleaning solutions is a chemical like Kodak Photo Flo. All it takes is a few drops in the cleaning solution and like with film, it prevents water spots from forming.
    Homemade cleaning solution:
    1 cup warm distilled water
    2 drops Dawn dishwashing detergent
    2 drops Kodak Photo Flo or equivalent
    enough alcohol that the solution doesn't bead up(optional)
    Alcohol is not so much used as a cleaner/disinfectant but as a spreader. It mixes and is absorbed by the water and promotes even spreading of the cleaning solution.
    Alcohol should NEVER be used on records which are made out of anything but vinyl.
    A soft toothbrush or dedicated record cleaning brush should be used when manually cleaning records.
    Air drying? That will allow water/mineral deposit to form and/or draw dust from the air.
    Manually drying with any kind of cloth, even lint-free, can imbed contaminants into the grooves, plus as the edges of the records are not always smooth, threads and chunks of the cloth can be caught.
    It is true that sometimes stuff is stuck to the record and no cleaner or brush can remove it. NEVER use a fingernail. It is better to use a sharp rounded toothpick made of wood or plastic. If you are really skilled, you can even use a metal pick like a dentist might use. I found food stuck to a Beatle album which was pressed by Optimal.
    If you do anything to the grooves of a record, closely observe what you are doing. Jeweler's loops are cheap and you can get them through Amazon. Without one of these, you may never be able to see what is making the tick or pop.
    And remember, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER touch the playing surface of a record with bare fingers, no matter how clean you think they are. And NEVER use any kind of water other than distilled in your cleaning or rinsing solution.
     
    The_Windmill likes this.
  18. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I disagree, a finger nail is softer than anything else you mentioned, and it can feel the exact spect to extract from the grooves where a tool cannot. And I go with the groove cut, not against it. It's soft and very effective. Not sharp like tools are.

    I've touched thousands of records over the last 45 years, before cleaning them. But of course my hands are clean when I do it. I insist on feeling the record and it's makeup, pressing consistency, label type and thickness. Never any oil from hands is left. Rinsing after a good Palmolive or Dawn cleaning with distilled water is ideal.

    And the clean cotton terry towel - lint free leaves no streaks at all.

    I've been at this longer than you I can tell. I've been through the thrift stores, and garage crates which needed more than a soft brush and a couple drops of your favorite soap or what have you.

    I've seen my LPs come out sparking and perfect. Deep deep deeper cleaning than your method. As a matter of fact I have several methods which are utilized depending on several factors.

    The biggest consideration with deep water cleaning is what type of label is in the records, and how will it handle being wet. Thankfully I have that issue resolved. I know which records handle it and which need additional care. And what kind of care.
     
  19. I've been hoarding records for over 60 years, so I know a little bit of what I am talking about. A fingernail is much harder than a toothpick made of wood or plastic. Try a stress test and see what breaks first. Yeh, I've used a fingernail also, but I've found that doing that sometimes doesn't get what is down in the groove, especially vinyl flashings. As I stated, if you use sharp things around a record, you better know what you are doing. Using a jeweler's loop or other high magnification device can show you what you didn't get.
    Having collected records for so long, I pretty much have whatever original records I've ever wanted, many when they first came out. If in a thrift store, I may look through the records, but most are too trashed for me, so I don't bother with them. Even record stores which sell used records, I don't buy many. Exceptions are always if I find something which I haven't seen before, which I want and which are in good enough shape. One of the record stores I used to go in to used a Nitty Gritty RCM on records when you bought them, if they hadn't been cleaned already. I found that RCM to actually imbed contaminants into the grooves and I would have to re-clean them when I got home, so I wouldn't allow them to clean those records.
    A current record store I have gone into a couple of times cleans all records before putting them out in an ultrasonic record cleaning system, which is touchless, and then dries them in a filtered air blower. Both steps auto-rotate the records. The cleaning solution includes Kodak Photo Flo, so there is no spotting. This cleaning method gets everything off of and out of the record grooves. No fingernails or tools necessary. And the records come out pristine, often looking and always playing better than new. I wish that I could afford one of these RCM's.
    If you touch a record playing surface, it should then be cleaned. Unless you are something other than a human being, no matter how clean your hands are, they have oil on them. If they didn't, your skin would dry up and crack. At record pressing plants, often the records are manually put into the inner sleeves and record covers. It has been traditional to wear white soft cloth gloves when they handle the records and the quality pressing plants still do this.
    The oil on your hands acts almost like an acid and etches into the records. I've had some records with fingerprints on them that won't fully come off.
    Record label protectors are easily made or you can buy them. With old 78 rpm records, the printing and labels can easily wash away. 78's of the 1950's are not so bad and use more traditional modern paper labels. On the newer record labels, if they were printed with organic ink, like they use in newspapers and magazines, it can easily smear if you touch them with your fingers.
     
  20. DickLaurentIsDead

    DickLaurentIsDead Forum Resident

    Updated settings:

    1200 to ART USB Phono Plus (low pass filter on) to Laptop

    Record each side in Audacity, peaking around -6db
    Send thru clickrepair - x2, pitch and reverse both selected, all automatic, and declick set to 4 or 5 (most of my records are clean).
    Input each side back to Audacity, doing the following with each:
    Use Audacity's more agressive click removal for the few that escaped clickrepair
    If still some huge spikes, I will repair them if allowed
    If some noise between tracks, I'll apply a very conservative noise reduction after selecting the quietest noise between 2 tracks.
    *I THEN NORMALIZE EACH TRACK SEPARATELY TO -3DBs!!
    Soft limit each track about 1.20dbs or more, and normalize again to -3dbs, BUT NOT SO MUCH THE ORIGINAL DYNAMIC RANGE IS NOTICEABLY ALTERED
    Divide tracks, and save in new folder for each album

    *Normalizing each track isn't really problematic so far. I'm not going to apply the Limiter much to, for example, The Beatles - Julia until it's as loud as Back In The USSR of course, I'll maintain the integrity of its original quietness to an extent. But I will normalize Julia.

    Besides, don't you guys ever turn the volume up during quiet songs anyway in your vehicle?
    Isn't that the same thing?

    A question of mine would be if the Noise Reduction is hurting or helping?
    I'm not sure I hear any artifacts yet.

    Do any of you audiophiles notice any glaring mistakes I'm doing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  21. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Yes, you should not normalize each track...every track was not meant to be the same level.
     
    Casey737, The_Windmill and Grant like this.
  22. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Several! And, they aren't even audiophile mistakes.


    1200 to ART USB Phono Plus (low pass filter on) to Laptop

    Record each side in Audacity, peaking around -6db
    Send thru clickrepair - x2, pitch and reverse both selected, all automatic, and declick set to 4 or 5 (most of my records are clean).[/QUOTE]

    If you do any file manipulation beyond short edits after the initial transfer, you should be recording at at least 24-bit.

    If you do an album, you should maintain the original level of each track by normalizing all tracks together, not individually. Also, make sure you do this in at least 24-bit.

    Limiting, if you choose to do that, should be the last step you do before dithering to 16-bit. Make sure your files do not clip. If you ever plan on creating mp3s out your files, leave at least .02db of headroom.

    A lot of people will tell you to never use limiting, but, it's your project. You do as you see fit.

    Divide tracks, and save in new folder for each album

    No. I don't. Mind you, I create needledrops for all playback environments. I do not create them specifically for the car. My goal is to archive the vinyl, yet make it pristine. If it sounds good on the home speakers, it should sound good in the car. And, I never use headphones for tweaking the sound if that's what I feel a file needs.

    I use Noise Reduction. There is no shame, and it is not wrong. The trick here is to use a proper program and carefully compare the before and after sound to ensure that the music is not being harmed. This takes good monitoring, a god ear, and lots of patience for trial and error before committing to settings.

    If you do a good job, you shouldn't hear any. But, there are more types of artifacts besides just the low-level watery sound. Excessive NR can come in the form of a dead sound or robbed bass and air. The trickiest part of using NR is knowing when to not use it.
     
  23. DickLaurentIsDead

    DickLaurentIsDead Forum Resident

    Hi, thanks. A few clarifications, and questions again:

    Yes, I believe this happens by default in Audacity. I haven't changed any settings. Sending to clickrepair doesn't change anything either. Saving the final record is when it dithers to 16 bit, after all editing is done. (Right?)

    Yes, it's all done in 24 bit. I'm 99% sure, anyway.

    Regarding normalizing each track - something like Aja or Dark Side Of The Moon, or Alan Parsons Project, I'm not gonna normalize each track separately. Those are clearly engineering benchmarks.
    I also won't normalize separate tracks when the tracks are seamless, without spaces.
    But something like, The Seeds? or Funkadelic? Or some early Johnny Paycheck comp? Anything loud, rough, and ragged? I just don't see the folks involved with those particular recordings caring one way or the other about the integrity of the quiet tracks vs loud tracks. (especially on comps).
    I just recorded Ruth Copeland's record with Funkadelic as her band, on Invictus. All tracks normalized separately. I seriously don't think I'm offending any Funkadelic purists by do so.
    Now, if I do Alan Parsons I Robot, I will make a far better attempt to maintain it's original vibe.
    Hope that makes sense.

    The last audio manipulation step I do is normalize to -.3, this comes after my last limiting step (otherwise, what's the point?). And if normalizing to -.3, it will never clip I'm assuming?

    What do you mean by a dead sound? Or robbed bass and air?

    I should mention my NR settings in Audacity:
    Noise Reduction: 7db
    Sensitivity: 6
    Smoothing: 0
    Reduce
    I will grab a few seconds of the quietest noise between 2 tracks, if any at all, and use that.

    However, it sounds like it would be best to just avoid altogether, maybe.
    Thanks!
     
  24. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    There's no need to get a file so close to maximum volume, unless you are going to put your needledrop in rotation with audio from maxed out CDs, without replaygain adjustment. The noise of vinyl and your phono pre only dictates about 12 bits required. -6dB is still 15 bits. There's other things, like even your DAC, that might not perform optimally when riding it with full-scale sample peaks.

    MP3 can clip even with significantly lower input levels than -0.02dB or -0.3dB. The frequency-to-time conversion and the filtering and removal of audio bands can cause transient digital levels to become much higher. It is not actually the encoding, but rather the decoding stage that will clip.

    Here we encode a hot CD rip with LAME using the clipdetect feature:

    >lame -V3 --clipdetect lmfao.wav lmfao.mp3
    LAME 3.99.5 64bits (LAME MP3 Encoder )
    CPU features: SSE (ASM used), SSE2 (ASM used)
    Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 17960 Hz - 18494 Hz
    Encoding lmfao.wav to lmfao.mp3
    Encoding as 44.1 kHz j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III VBR(q=3)
    Frame | CPU time/estim | REAL time/estim | play/CPU | ETA
    10037/10037 (100%)| 0:05/ 0:05| 0:05/ 0:05| 49.704x| 0:00
    32 [ 4] %
    40 [ 1] *
    48 [ 4] %
    56 [ 7] %
    64 [ 13] %
    80 [ 14] %
    96 [ 16] %
    112 [ 30] %
    128 [ 679] %******
    160 [ 6708] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%*****************************************************
    192 [ 1560] %%%%%%**********
    224 [ 203] %**
    256 [ 519] %%****
    320 [ 279] %**
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    kbps LR MS % long switch short %
    172.9 23.3 76.7 87.6 6.1 6.3
    Writing LAME Tag...done
    ReplayGain: -11.6dB
    WARNING: clipping occurs at the current gain. Set your decoder to decrease

    the gain by at least 4.1dB or encode again using --scale 0.62
    or less (the value under --scale is approximate).


    That's 4dB into the red on decode.

    You don't need to make the accommodations in the WAV file, though, as the mp3 encoder may have the --scale option available.

    A tool such as mp3directcut can alter the gain factor of an encoded MP3 losslessly in 1.5dB increments to correct such a problem on an already-encoded file.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  25. DickLaurentIsDead

    DickLaurentIsDead Forum Resident

    English, please?
    Haha, but seriously, can you explain a little more, if you don't mind?

    1. So what should I normalize to, if not -.3? From what I've read, it sounds like that is safe enough.
    2. The decoding stage? What is this? I always use wav files. From 32bit float to 16bit (or higher maybe) once saved to PC.
    3. So couldn't I dither, then send the 16bit mp3 back to Audacity and check it's levels in waveform? If clipped, wouldn't they be displayed?

    Ugh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018

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