Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Vocalpoint, May 11, 2011.

  1. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
    When I process the needledrop I use mainly the keyboard not the mouse. It's faster.

    At 0:32 YT video time I use the mouse to change to blue "T" from "F" and at 0:35 I move the yellow vertical position marker at 0:00 with "HOME".

    With the phase cancellation method I can select with great precision what is removed from needledrop. For example, the blindly use of the automatic de-clicker at sens 1.0 removes also many transients and harmonics and the sound is degrading.

    The phase cancellation can be used for any type of cleaning (de-click, de-crackle, de-rumble or even spectral de-noise). It's time consuming but the result it's studio quality.
     
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  2. Grant

    Grant Now let that bass fall in! Oh yeah!

    Location:
    United States
    When I work, I am not interested in working fast. Some of the things I do gets mighty tedious and I absolutely need a mouse.
     
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  3. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    So when you declick the entire file do you then listen to all of the clicks how do you tell what to keep and what to discard?
     
  4. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
    Yes, 50% about of clicks at 0.5 sens are false positive. It takes training to distinguish between real clicks and music transients.
     
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  5. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I got my demo of the Merging Technologies Anubis. I posted in a couple of other threads so not to get so much into that here is a sample of the two devices. My old one Focusrite Forte and the Anubis.
    Dropbox - Anubis test.flac - Simplify your life
     
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  6. I had a hard time telling if the samples were different. I think I prefer the first part. They both sound really good.
     
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  7. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Thanks for listening. I agree the difference is small perhaps more on a better system.

    I still am thinking about getting one. The DAC is an improvement in noticably but in small audiophile ways. I realized I was already about as good as it gets. The Anubis is way overkill for vinyl. It's a really nice unit and will do what I wanted it to do. Is an improvement over the McIntosh DAC and will eliminate the syncing errors I sometimes get.

    The Anubis is the first sample.
     
  8. jsternbe

    jsternbe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Knoxville, TN USA
    I just use the Denoise function, but I choose only the low frequencies where you see the rumble from the turntable and the general roughness of the vinyl. If you select in an area without any music it is pretty obvious what to select. Then I do a best quality Denoise, which leaves the bass intact, but filters out the rumble enough that you can barely hear it, even in headphones.
     
  9. jsternbe

    jsternbe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Knoxville, TN USA
    You can see here where most of the rumble is gone when the bass drops out, but when there is content in the bass, it is still there.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
    For my needledros is safe to remove rumble by phase cancellation between 0-30 Hz. The bass from the music is still there but somehow smoothed to not break the subwoofer rubber by overcharging the drive.

    For the tweeters protection and HF garbage noise removal (distortion, aliasing, artifacts) I cut off everything above the half of the frequency bandwidth according with the Nyquist theorem. Eg. for the PCM 96/24 files I put a low pass brickwall at 24 KHz and then a low pass linear filter order 2 at 23 KHz (the reduction starting from 20 Khz).

    BTW I think there is nothing above 24 KHz on the original analogue reel-to-reel master tapes from which they pretend the vinyls are made.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
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  11. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
    For the PCM quantization noise floor reduction, I fill the whole bandwidth with gaussian white noise at -80 dB and then I make two pass de-noise removal at 40dB each (with a noise profile from the empty area, filled only with white noise).

    I fill music with noise to remove the hidden and untouchable noise. The gaussian white noise acts like a glue and when I remove it, it removes other noise too.

    I read about this in some papers on net and it's working.
     
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  12. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
    How to make needledrops sound better?

    I EQ my needledrops, track-by-track, with the RX 6 Advanced, Spectral De-noise function (reduction curve enabled + 0 dB general reduction), according to the ISO 226-2003 ATH curve. The harsh and unpleasant sounds in the MID are reduced.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Hi guys I got my new audio device (Anubis) hooked up I started over with a image backup and set it up fresh. I can't remember how to route the RX VST plugins to be able to use RX in Sound Forge 11. I figured it out by accident last time but I'm stumped now.
     
  14. stetsonic

    stetsonic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Finland
    I haven't used Sound Forge for a long time but is this link of any help?

    How to Install a VST Plugin in Sound Forge
     
  15. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I thought this was a thing and why I used to remove everything below 18hz. I thought it would make my woofer move more than they need to. Bob maybe your setup is different but I cut and pasted just the 0-18 hz in it's own file and played it and even cranked up the woofer didn't move at all nor did I hear anything.
     
  16. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I tried that I might not understand what they mean by installing the VST file.
     
  17. I have Soundforge 12. The VST set up is in "PLUG INS" tab, then "VST SETUP". Put in the location of your VST files. Ensure the checkbox is checked at the bottom to have Soundforge scan the locations of new files.
     
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  18. stetsonic

    stetsonic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Finland
    Well, that's sort of a general guide - you probably already have the RX VST plugins installed so steps 4 - 6 are the most relevant in your case. You need to find the exact folder your RX plugins are in; the default location is the system's VST folder. For example in 64-bit Windows it should be either C:\Program Files\Vstplugins or C:\Program Files\Steinberg\Vstplugins - browse the folders or search for "vst". I think arisinwind's answer above got you covered pretty well.
     
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  19. Stefan

    Stefan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    This would be dependant on the source LP as well. A lot of LPs I own have absolutely no audio information below 30Hz and some even higher than that. It's easy to see if you adjust RX's spectral view resolution to resolve the low frequencies and use extended log view. A couple of audiophile pressings I own have obvious frequencies down to 20Hz but most of the time it's just rumble and/or natural vinyl background noise down there. Even if there were some low-level bass overtones, they would be drowned out by the vinyl noise (hence the perception some may have that they are "smoothed") so even advanced noise-reduction software such as RX wouldn't be able to recover them.
     
  20. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I just know when I copied the rumble and played only it my woofers didn't move at all, nor could my old ears hear it.
    I figured it out and like before it was only through experimentation. So I tried in the default and alternate 1 folder to direct it to the RX file. It wasn't until I choose the whole programs (x86) file and sound forge would throw up the stopped work message and clicking either send or don't send would close the program and nothing would be saved. I could see after choosing the program file sound forge was scanning for possible VST plugins. So I paid no attention to the stopped working message and let it finish and clicked apply. Then went to recreate plugin by name under FX favorites and it was done.
    [​IMG]upload image to url

    Anyone know a better free photo upload option without the smut? That sometimes pops up.
     
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  21. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I have been loving my new audio device the Anubis from Merging Technologies. The sound is fantastic but how the device itself is set up is equally fantastic. It revealed to me how in subtle way using to much noise reduction does harm the file. [​IMG]

    The big knob controls the volume levels and simply by either A,B or one of the headphone outs gives you complete control and it works more or less like the volume control on a amp. A full rotation goes from 0-100% or there about.

    edit; I just tested it and actually 3 complete revolutions goes from -95 to +12 I listen at -18 and one good turn from there makes it hearing damaging loud. So it's very easy to crank it up.

    So I have been using RX noise reduction at around 0-350 Hz at a reduction level of 25. This really removes most of the floor noise and prior to my most recent needle drop I have not been able to hear a bit of difference. So I would then do an additional reduction from 350- 48k Hz at a level of 15. The second reduction to be honest I could tell if it improved or harmed anything. I have continued using it because I could see a little clearing of the noise in the waveform.

    So on my recent drop during a long quite part there were a few bass notes very low and with the volume turned up like 80% and with all the headroom of the device doing a before after reduction at level 25 I am able to clearly hear the diminished bass notes. So I'm back to just doing a single reduction of the whole file at level 15. Not sure if I could change the slider or advanced settings, basically from the default setting to help me to remove the noise but not the subtle bass.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  22. Stefan

    Stefan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Nice new gear.

    I haven't had time to write up the procedure I use now, but I'm encouraged by the results. In short, convert your file to Mid/Side and then learn your noise sample and apply your full-file noise reduction to the side channel only (once converted to M/S, its data will be in the lower channel onscreen.

    Once you convert back to L/R, you'll find that most or all of the noise you wanted to remove is gone and the bass in not really diminished (since most bass lives in the centered Mid channel anyway). Don't go too heavy on the noise reduction or you'll be cutting lower frequency ambience in the Side channel. I've been generally setting the Spectral Noise Reduction to a strength of 3dB and then using the reduction curve with smoothing at about 5 to lower the noise profile until it hits about -100dB (make sure in the Advanced settings that you have Whitening turned up to 10).

    I've found that on most records I needledrop, this gives me almost perfect results with only a little bit of work needing to be done between tracks and occasionally on quiet passages. It takes a bit of practice, but it's worth it.

    For the conversion to M/S and back to L/R, I use the Mixing module with a preset I set to as follows: the new Left channel (the "Mid" channel) at +71% +71% and the new Right (the "Side" channel) at +71% and -71%. The beauty of these settings is that you can simple toggle back and forth with the same preset (I have a keyboard shortcut set up for it Ctrl+Shift+M). If you leave the Mixing module open onscreen, you can use it to preview while working in M/S mode without having to convert back and forth just to hear how changes you make will sound.

    (By the way, if you use the preset I just described, when in M/S mode, you top channel will often look like it has peaks going up above 0dB and you may think they've been clipped. As long as you don't save the file to anything other than 32-bit floating point format or else convert it back to L/R before saving, there's nothing to worry about. Also keep your monitoring levels at regular listening levels.)

    In addition to this noise reduction, while in M/S mode you will find other stuff gets uncovered such as repetitive thumps, chicks that were buried in the regular waveform but are very visible in M/S mode, etc.

    Finally, to continue the topic of subfrequencies below 20Hz or so, I've found that using the iZotope Ozone EQ set to M/S with a high pass filter set to remove all frequencies below 20Hz but in the Side channel only, results in a very clean subsonic area but without chopping off any bass overtones, etc., that may reach down there since they mostly live in the Mid channel.

    I've been getting results with this method that rival digital for quiet backgrounds. There are also some neat things you can do to counteract the bass summing that was often done on older records since the filters used were analog and reach up and narrow the lower midrange. Compensating for this results in better lower midrange ambience, and overall separation.

    Anyway, when I have time I intend to post some examples and screen grabs.
     
  23. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I'm just finishing up the Mott the hoople drop going to try it. What noise reduction level do you generally use?
     
  24. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Is this the setting you would use? And converting back you use the same % settings?[​IMG]
     
  25. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Is this what you mean in the ozone eq setting. Also a reduction level of 3 did nothing so I'm guessing I misunderstood your direction.[​IMG]
     

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