ABBA - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition coming May 2011

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by OberonOz, Feb 23, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    Interesting review. How does it compare to the Atlantic CD version in your opinion?

    Rudolf
     
  2. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    You have to remember though that a comparison of the two versions will inevitably highlight differences between the extended version is an early mix so it probably has a less polished sound than the released version.
     
  3. Barry Vaughan

    Barry Vaughan Active Member

    Location:
    Edinburgh
    As I said above, the new DE sounds much more like the original LP, especially in the bass, than the 1983 Polydor CD does.
     
  4. Hootenannysinger

    Hootenannysinger Member

    Location:
    Sweden
    I have never listened to the Atlantic version so I don't know. I have only compared it to the Polydor/polygram version, from 1983 (?). I'm really interested about your opinion Rudolf.
     
  5. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

  6. aarsonbet

    aarsonbet Forum Resident

    Might they be working from a copy tape that was sent to the studio to make the music video? That would account for the extra hiss. They're obviously not using the mixdown master, as that would have been edited to remove the extra verse.

    Also, is it possible that the tape on hand for the "long" version is at a speed lower than normal? (Not sure if the mixdown tapes would be 30ips or 15ips, but perhaps this one is 7.5ips?)
     
  7. JonasR

    JonasR Forum Resident

    Location:
    Göteborg, Sweden

    Attached Files:

  8. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    I've finally got my hands on the Deluxe Edition and I've put together two samples which you can use to compare the 2005 CSR mastering, the 1980s Atlantic mastering and the new DE effort. Each comprises a short segment of each song with the mastering switching throughout.

    The links are:

    Super Trouper -
    http://www.2shared.com/file/w7zFB7K2/super.html

    Lay All Your Love On Me -
    http://www.2shared.com/file/p2XuArsw/layall.html

    My own initial opinion is that I prefer the Atlantic. But, to preserve the mystery, I won't tell you which segment of each sample is which because I want to do a blind test on this one.
     
  9. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    How does the DE compare to the West German Polydor in your opinion?

    Rudolf
     
  10. newstarter11

    newstarter11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    BLOODY HELL, i can tell which ones were csr 2005!
     
  11. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    To be nit-picky, it would have been better if the editions were all played at the same volume.

    Rudolf
     
  12. newstarter11

    newstarter11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    but then again, all of them are better than astley's. i even threw out the cd from the abba gold 1999 remaster. one reason being laylom sounding so muffled!
     
  13. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    Oh goodness yes! The 2001 Super Trouper remaster is simply awful.
     
  14. AndyH

    AndyH Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Excellent samples, thanks for those!
     
  15. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    http://www.iphpbb.com/board/viewtopic.php?nxu=30652567nx61610&p=434851#434851

    ABBA – Super Trouper Deluxe Edition 2011 – An analysis of the sound quality
    By Rudolf Ondrich
    13/05/2011

    Here is my analysis of the new Super Trouper Deluxe remaster. A friend in Germany sent me the audio only, so I haven’t had a chance to look at the DVD. Nevertheless, audio matters to me are much more exciting, after all ABBA is known first and foremost for their music!

    Remember that this is all “in my opinion” – as I have stressed out before, this sort of exercise is quite subjective. I even find myself changing opinions on what edition sounds best from time to time! Hopefully though I would at least make you think critically about the various remasters, and thus let you make up your own mind.

    I have compared the 2011 Deluxe edition, remastered from the stereo mixdown tapes by Erik Broheden at Masters of Audio, Stockholm, to the following editions -

    1982 West German Polydor – It is unknown who or what engineer(s) created this version. This edition is presumed to be a flat transfer of the German LP cutting tape, complete with the dropout on the title track. As the LP tapes were used, the applause between Lay All Your Love On Me and The Way Old Friend Do is intact.

    1985ish Atlantic – This is arguably the first remastered ABBA CD ever made. Zal Schreiber at Atlantic Studios NYC revealed on the Steve Hoffman forums that he added some bass and a little bit of compression when mastering the audio. The bass especially gives it a more “fuller” sound when compared to the Polydor versions. Schreiber presumably used the American LP cutting tapes, as the applause between Lay All Your Love On Me and The Way Old Friend Do is also intact.

    1994 Thank You For The Music Box set (where applicable) - Remastered by Michael B. Tretow. Tretow used the stereo mixdown tapes, evident as Lay All Your Love On Me has a clean ending. While not adding any compression/ever so slight limiting, these remasters are sometimes criticised as being overtly bright and harsh.

    1994 Mas ABBA Oro (where applicable) - Remastered by Michael B. Tretow. Similar story to his TYFTM box set remasters.

    1995 USA Polydor – Sounds very similar to the 1982 West German Polydor edition, but lacks the massive dropout on the title track. The audio is also ever so slightly harsher when compared to the West German Polydor. Presumably the American LP cutting tape was used. Unlike the Atlantic however, this version does not seem to have been remastered.

    1997/2001 Astley – Remastered by Jon Astley – Astley seems to have employed the mixdown tapes here, as the applause between LAYLOM and TWOFD. This version is by far the “thinnest” sounding of them all, lacking in any real bass. I emailed Astley in regards to the thinness of this remaster, and he replied that the mixdown tapes sounded quite thin to begin with. Most fans I know consider the 1997/2001 to be the worst edition out of them all.

    1999 Oro (where applicable) – Similar to 1997/2001 Astley

    2005 CSR/2008 The Albums – Remastered by Henrik Jonsson at Masters of Audio, Stockholm – This version used an LP cutting tape, but not the German one as there is no dropout. The applause is intact. While sounding much more “beefier” than the 1997/2001, excessive compression and limiting badly distorts the audio at times, and makes the whole CD sound flat and lifeless.

    While I haven’t heard them, my research indicates that the Japanese Polydor and Discomate CD editions come from the presumably Japanese LP tapes, as there is no dropout and the segue is intact.

    As you may be aware, the 2005 CSR remasters were criticised by many for having too much compression and limiting, and in turn being victims of the “loudness war.” In response, UMG re-remastered Voulez-Vous for the Deluxe edition back in 2010. This remastering was much more dynamic, and was generally received quite positively. It also appears that the VV Deluxe remaster used the mixdown tapes.

    Even though I personally think that the Voulez-Vous Delux remaster is the best CD version of Voulez-Vous, one of my criticisms of it was that they added slightly too much limiting (a form of compression) for my tastes. Voulez-Vous (the title song) sounded ever so slightly “boxed in” because of the limiting applied.

    When I heard that Super Trouper would be remastered again for the Deluxe edition, I wrote an email to Mia Segolsson (she deals with the ABBA stuff for UMG), telling her how well the Voulez-Vous Deluxe remaster has been received. I also told her that I hope that even less limiting would be applied on the forthcoming Super Trouper Deluxe remastering. She replied that, while she is unable to go into the technical aspects of the remaster, all previous versions have been okayed with ABBA prior to release. Interestingly, in my exchange between Astley, he revealed to me that Benny had sent him a thank you note after he did the 1997 remaster.

    I am very excited to report that the limiting issue has been dealt with here. The limiting on the Super Trouper Deluxe is more or less the same level as the 1994 Thank You for The Music box set. This marks a very drastic and welcome return to dynamics, dynamics not heard since the 1994 remasters. I greatly applaud UMG/the remastering engineers for doing this.

    It is interesting to see that on the ABBA site an article describing the remastering of the Deluxe Edition was made (you can read it here http://www.abbasite.com/articles/articles/super-sound-on-super-trouper ). The article describes how “all of the recordings used in this process have been taken from the original master tapes of each individual track on the original album” (ie mixdown tapes) and that “the philosophy behind the CD mastering (…) was to remain as close to the original tapes as possible, retaining the original dynamics.” I wonder why UMG released this statement. Perhaps they are realising that quite a few of us are actually quite interested about the sonics of the ABBA remasters. It could also be an indirect admission of failure on their part, as pervious remasters did not retain the original dynamics and did not use the mixdown tapes for instance.

    This new remaster hands down beats the 1997/2001 and 2005 CSR/The Albums versions, making it the best sounding version available in print. The 1997/2001 suffers from terrible “thinness,” while the 2005 is overtly compressed and limited, distorting the audio. The Deluxe edition has much more body than the 1997/2001, and also does not suffer from distortion like the 2005 CSR edition.

    The new remaster also beats the TYFTM versions. As I mentioned before, the TYFTM versions are quite bright and harsh. This harshness is simply not present on the Deluxe remaster.

    The next issue is how does the Deluxe edition stack up to the 1980’s CD versions, namely the Polydor 1982 and the Atlantic 1985ish. In my view, the limiting on the Deluxe edition is not significant to be an issue, and the dynamic ranges of these CD editions is more or less the same. Thus, this discussion will turn on equalisation and other specific factors.

    This is a track by track analysis. As you may know I have a great fondness for the Atlantic 1985ish CD pressing. My main criticism of the 1982 Polydor/1995 Polydor is that they sound quite “thin” in places (no where near as bad as the disastrous 1997/2001 editions). The Atlantic version “beefs” up the sound a bit (much like the 2005 CSR remaster, but without the massive distortion and flattening of sound).

    1. Super Trouper – 1985ish Atlantic

    In my opinion the Atlantic edition has more “oomph” than the 2011 Deluxe version. To me the thinness is still here, although not as bad as the Polydor version and certainly not as bad as the 1997/2001.

    As Astley suggested to me, the mixdowns may be rather thin sounding. In that case some equalisation work would have been needed to give the sound some more “oomph.” My opinion is that, for some tracks, Zal Schreiber for the Atlantic edition did a better job of this than Erik Broheden for the Deluxe edition.

    2. The Winner Takes It All – 2011 Deluxe edition

    The bass on the Atlantic version can be a bit overpowering at times, with the Deluxe edition sounding less “muddled.” Agnetha’s voice does shine quite nicely, climaxing at 3:55 onwards. The 2001 version sounds terribly thin, while the 2005 CSR is massively distorted, even for CSR standards.

    3. On & On & On – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons for Super Trouper.

    The Extended version sounds slightly harsher and has some tape hiss when compared to the regular version.

    4. Andante Andante – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper.

    5. Me and I – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper. I just love this song, and I love the Atlantic mastering of it!

    6. Happy New Year – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper.

    7. Our Last Summer – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper.

    8. The Piper – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper.

    9. Lay All Your Love On Me – 1985ish Atlantic

    Similar reasons as for Super Trouper.

    The crossfade on the 2011 edition is not exactly the same as the version found on the LP cutting tapes.

    Best clean ending version – Thank You For The Music box set 1994

    10. They Way Old Friends Do – 2011 Deluxe Edition

    Similar reasons as for The Winner Takes It All.
    The fade out of the Deluxe edition mirrors every other version, excluding the Atlantic which takes much longer to fade out.

    Bonus tracks

    Elaine - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition 2011

    The next best version (Thank You For The Music box set 1994), while dynamic, suffers from excessive treble. The Deluxe Edition 2011 version is both dynamic and does not suffer from excessive treble.

    Put On Your White Sombrero - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition 2011/Thank You For The Music box set 1994

    I did a “cancellation test” in Audacity, and the results showed that the mastering between the two versions is more or less identical. (A “cancellation test” is when you synchronise the tracks perfectly in any audio editor, and then invert one of the tracks. All of the common audio is removed, leaving only the differences between the two versions)

    Andante Andante (Spanish) - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition 2011

    The next best version, Mas ORO from 1994, suffers from excessive treble, making it sound harsh.

    Felicidad - Super Trouper Deluxe Edition 2011

    Same story as Andante Andante (Spanish)

    Overall, I am very pleased at the new Deluxe remaster. Like I said before, it is by far the best version available in print. However, apart from The Winner Takes It All, I feel that the Atlantic version is still supreme. In my opinion the Atlantic version does a better job of “oomphing” up the sound. In an ideal world, I would have given the mixdowns to Zal Schreiber for him to remaster!

    The Super Trouper Deluxe edition gives me great hope for The Visitors Deluxe edition. In my opinion even the slightest limiting and compression ruins that album, as the dynamics are integral both sonically as well as musically. Perhaps there will be a decent sounding remaster of that album for once!

    For your reference here are some YouTube videos that demonstrate the differences in the various remasters of the Super Trouper album. I made these videos before the Deluxe edition was released, hence the omission. I am also aware that rubbish YouTube audio compression (that’s lossy compression) mucks up with the audio quite badly; nevertheless they do give a rough outline of the different mastering. Watch the 720p High Definition version to get the best audio quality!

    Lay All Your Love On Me
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBJdfkXV5_s

    Me and I
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HwOwtgIYig

    The Way Old Friends Do (comparing fade out of applause at the end between the West German Polydor and the Atlantic)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2xDNXHW9K8

    Rudolf
     
  16. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    I left the volume as it was in the interests of providing an accurate perspective as to how the three compared.
     
  17. mozpiano2

    mozpiano2 Forum Resident

    But having them at the same level better highlights the amount of compression/limiting used.

    Rudolf
     
  18. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    I haven't heard enough to make a definitive judgement yet. I am not at all certain about the equalisation of the DE.
     
  19. JonasR

    JonasR Forum Resident

    Location:
    Göteborg, Sweden
    That's a question I decided to dig into...

    Today I called Masters of Audio and spoke with Erik Broheden.
    But there were only two things he could say about this release:
    1) There's a trend in music biz now to allow for more dynamics.
    2) Universal and Masters of Audio made an agreement how to make the remaster.
    Beyond this he was not allowed to speak due to confidentiality rules.
    He recommended me to contact Universal Music to find out more.

    So next step was to call Universal Music in Stockholm. I talked with Mia Segolsson who is the Marketing Manager Polar Music International.
    She said that the decision to keep the dynamics in the Deluxe edition was made inside Universal Music. They wanted this release to have best possible sound.
    I thanked her for this decision, and told her it was the right one.
     
    driverdrummer likes this.
  20. Mike the Fish

    Mike the Fish Señor Member

    Location:
    England
    Nice work Jonas, thank you. :)
     
  21. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    I've finally finished listening to the CD and it was one hell of an odd experience. It was like bumping into an old friend and then noticing all these little things you had never spotted before.

    The mastering of Super Trouper Deluxe is unlike that of any previous CD edition of the album.

    Firstly, it's the least bright mastering of the album I have heard - even the 1980s Atlantic CD is brighter. Secondly, there is more bass than previous masterings so expect to hear more of the bass lines.

    The bass is perhaps a tad more than I would ideally like but it's probably authentic - the recording and mixing engineer Michael B Tretow is a noted fan of prominent rhythm sections. It's likely that the bass was simply reduced in previous masterings - it certainly sounds natural.

    Thirdly, the amount of detail revealed in the remastering process is striking. There will be points where you think that they remixed rather than remastered - Elaine and The Winner Takes It All both gave me a bit of a surprise. The level of compression employed is very slight - it is only a bit louder than the Atlantic CD from 1985!

    The only flaw I really noticed was that there was one or two minor dropouts which were a little more prominent than before but that is probably down to the age of the tapes involved.

    The full-length mix of On and On and On is a bit muddier than the album version but this seems to be because it seems to be a slightly earlier mix than the one that we are familiar with.

    It is the best CD mastering of the album I have heard and the level of improvement between it and the previous best (the Atlantic CD) is greater than was the case with Voulez-Vous Deluxe. The Atlantic is still an excellent CD but Super Trouper Deluxe exposes it for what it is: a excellent transfer of an LP cutting tape.
     
    driverdrummer likes this.
  22. newstarter11

    newstarter11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    btw, based on your "super trouper" sample kennyg, i think i prefer "the singles - the first ten years" mastering to everything- including atlantic 1985 and 2011 de. the "the singles" mastering as a bit more air to it, and i think has a slightly wider stereo image.

    i wonder about the differences in "the winner takes it all" b/w "the singles" (which already sounds nice) and the deluxe edition, though?

    maybe both of these songs on "the singles" came from mixdowns?
     
  23. newstarter11

    newstarter11 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    great insights, thanks for this too!
     
  24. KennyG

    KennyG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    My impression is that The Singles were pretty much all mixdowns after the first couple of tracks. The Name of the Game certainly was.

    There may be individual tracks on Super Trouper Deluxe where another edition may sound marginally better - I think the title track is one of those tracks - but as a package, it is the best mastering treatment of the album as a whole.
     
  25. Hootenannysinger

    Hootenannysinger Member

    Location:
    Sweden
    Agree! Nice work! It's good that they know we'll keep our eyes on them!


    Now I've finally listened to ST Atlantic. I find the Atlantic better than Polydor 1983 but still I think that the Deluxe is the best version ever of ST. Probably a combination of old technology and lp cutting tapes make the sound a bit thin and digital/harsh compared with the deluxe. It's clear that Atlantic has more bass than Polydor but for me it sounds as you add the bass from a too thin sound, so the right proportions are lost. In the case of Deluxe, the bass sounds more natural and fullbodied, together with a more "complete" sound. To me, it doesn't seem to be any significant difference in terms of dynamics.

    I did'nt think I would ever write this, but Universal have made it this time. Finally. I will send Universal and Erik Broheden an e-mail and thank them after all critique I've sent to Universal the last year! Hopefully they can find the mixdown tapes for all other albums and give them a similar treatment.

    So Rudolf, I do not agree with you on this point :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine