Anti skate question

I have one of the older Audio Technica AT-LP 120 turntables with defective almost non existent anti skating. Basically, even when it’s set to max, it only slows down the arm a bit before it goes to the center of the record. Will I be damaging my records by playing them on this table?

 

Well, its really a question of perspective. Any table will wear on the grooves no matter how optimal it is. You should know of course, that yours isnt the most gentle on records even if the anti skate is correct, but having it wrong doesnt help.
Anti Skating is one of the least pressing concerns when it comes to gentle playback however, so if you are really wanting to maintain your records you should look at Cart, stylus and alignments firstly.
What is your cart? How old is it? And did you install it all yourself with proper tools?

 

I would recommend to update your player to an AT-LP140XP. It's not that expensive and works well, even the antiskating. I use either AT33PTG/II (MC catridge) or AT-VM95ML (MM catridge) and both work very well with this turntable.

 

I don’t think I’m willing to take another chance with an audio technica turntable at this point. This one has been quite frustrating.

 

How so?

 

Aside from the anti-skate, not being able to get the tone arm level, noisey motor and platter, and inability to completely bypass the preamp.

This table hasn’t been a total bummer though, I’ve enjoyed it, I’m just worried about damage to records because of the anti-skate issue.

 

Trust me: The 140XP is a great unit. It also doesn't have an internal preamp.

 

Ok, I’ll check it out should I decide to replace my table.

 

Yes, it's worth the replacement.
I have it in use now for a few months and I am more than satisfied with it. I listen to lots of vinyl and have to digitize some stuff for some record companies (for re-releases) and it works really nice.

 

Then you should consider the first reply to this thread.

 

I have an AT95e set at 1.8 grams of tracking force. I used a downloaded protractor to allign it.

 

Thats good, although Im not sure any simple protractor has the correct alignment for the Technics tables, they are a little weird in their spindle to pivot distances. Should be close enough though. Did you set the tracking force with a digital gauge or just the counterweight markings?
What I highly suggest you consider is a finer stylus however. Doesnt have to be a whole new cart as I believe the 95E has a paratrace upgrade one can make to it very easily. How long have you been using that cart?

 

Probably about two years but only a few hours every week.

 

Might still be good then, but also likely verging on being worn at this point. Again I highly recommend a stylus upgrade, either for the same cart or in the form of a new one entirely. Its the most important part for ensuring minimal wear on records, weather you upgrade tables or not.

 

Also, heres to show why a digital gauge is preferable, he has the same table as you:

 

When you have it adjusted right, the arm will track on the SURFACE of the record (not in the groove) at the end of the record on the un-pressed flat space where the run-out groove is – it should track SLOWLY INWARDS toward the center at a MUCH SLOWER RATE than IF IT WERE ACTUALLY in the end groove. If you do that, then the best average Anti-Skating is set correctly.

The following is useful, but not all-telling. With medium or high compliance cartridges (NOT with most moving coil design) - LOOK at the position of the cantilever when it is up in the air, and when it is on the record, both at the beginning and at the end. Look for a change in the position both initially upon set-down, as well as after 1-2 minutes. If you DO THIS BEFORE adjusting as above, you will have a gross method to verify that you have problems with skating forces, as it should not change position - if it does, the A-S is VERY wrong. The best way to tell if it is very wrong is to look how the cartridge behaves on the flat surface, as described above.


Almost always, most tables are set so they have too much Antiskating or an adjustment that cannot be turned down enough, OR the range and fine control is terrible, or you have none.

Usually, most folks use far too much antiskating, as evidenced by the thousands of cartridges I have rebuilt over the last 40+ years – as evidenced by observation of the outer edge (right channel) of the diamond to be worn far more than the inner, or left channel.

A properly designed anti-skating is non-linear, as it should of course increase A-S automatically as the cartridge approaches the inner grooves.

Frank Schroder and I are of the same opinion about antiskating – and that renders MOST records that provide an anti-skating track totally in error – they are recorded at about 80-90% modulation – or HIGHER - and expect you to set the A-S force so that there is no distortion (or equal amounts on both channels if the cartridge tracks poorly).

How Do I Adjust Anti-skating On My Cartridge? | Soundsmith

 

Its a pretty good method anyway, I used to follow it very closely but found that it matters where you place the stylus.
In other words, if a record has a very big deadwax area it will have different skating forces compared to a smaller one.
How far out from the spindle and in what alignment should be used is never specified by Schroder as far as I know so its a bit of a guessing game still.
But I agree with the math and find quite close to how I put it anyway.

 

All true, except for two points:
The blank record isn't an accurate anti-skate test, however gets it "in the ballpark". The arm should not skate slowly inward... I don't know where people are getting that information from? The actual groove exerts more drag or pull versus a blank surface. So, if the arm skates slightly in on a blank surface, it will want to skate inward MORE when tracking a record groove. We must overbias slightly on the blank surface. So on a blank record surface, we want the arm to skate slowly outward. I hope this makes sense. It's simple physics.

As it is true the skating force is non-linear over a record side, the greatest skating force is at the outer edge, and progressively lessens as the arm advances in. Again, I read a lot of posts where people believe the inner groove exerts the most skating force.... not true... it is in fact the opposite.

Nothing personal to anyone, just calling on common mis-information
Happy listening,
Steve VK

 

It’s from the Peter Ledermann video. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with him. This is just an attempt to answer your question on the source.

 

Your records should be fine at 1.8 grams and just a little side force. The original AR turntable had no antiskate. I played my classic rock records to death on it, with a Shure M-91 ED tracking at 1 gram. My records survived with zero damage.

The one thing you should check is the stylus. If it has a lot of hours, let's say 2 hours of daily play, then it should be checked or replaced after two years. Cleaner records prolong stylus life. Dirty records shorten it, plus shortened record life. Another check-point is the cantilever. The lack of anti-skate, or over-bias can cause a permanent lean, and tilt of the stylus. This throws the alignment way off, and could cause damage. If the cantilever appears centered, you're good. So your worst enemy isn't so much the anti-skate, it's the stylus condition, and the state of cleanliness of the records.

 

Thanks Bob, Yes, Lederman is legendary and a valuable asset to the hifi community. I have listened to his tutorials on You Tube, and agree 100% with only one exception. I would be happy to argue with him one on one about the blank test.

 

AT LP120 VTA adjust-ability also wasn't the greatest. Did they address that issue on the 140XP?

 

There are some interesting debates on this topic online. I’m reading one at AK from April 2012 right now.

 

Very interesting. I have never heard people claim the arm should move outwards, but the logic is sound.
I find myself setting the anti skate higher than Ledermanns method so perhaps he just miss spoke when he said in instead of out. We should contact him about this and ask for clarification, or better yet, Schroder.

 

There are several videos on Youtube showing how to repair the anti-skate on that TT. Look fairly easy if you have basic soldering skills.