Anti-skate with VPI

Why does VPI make this statement? I can’t see how they can be that definitive in there remarks. I can see someone dropping the needle and it sliding so fast and hits the groved part and damages the needle or the record or if the entire side is groove less if it slid so fast maybe it could damage the tonearm.

If you try adjusting the anti-skate with a groove less record, you will ruin the twist in the tonearm wire and void your warranty. Do this with the mechanical anti-skate if you want that much anti-skate.

I used the groove less track and dropped the needle and lifted it as it slid into the center of the record. So I set up the anti-skate and it worked much better.

 

It's poorly worded but I think it means that overtwisting/damaging the tonearm wire trying to add enough anti-skate for a grooveless record will void the warranty.

Speaking of grooveless records, can someone explain the reasoning behind using a grooveless record to adjust anti-skate? While playing the needle is always in a groove and thus the anti-skate required will be much less then what would be required without a groove or am I missing something?

 

One could argue that (on average) there's more friction/drag in a groove than on a groove-less record, so you'd need more anti-skate than the groove-less record test requires. Maybe people with test records can compare?

 

Agreed. Probably just a poorly written statement regarding the warranty. They are very delicate wires so it's there probably more to those that may over twist the wires.

 

Are we talking about the tonearm wires for connecting the cartridge? Something I have never understood is the so called spring wire that they call their primary anti-skate devise. My tonearm just rest on the pivot point there are no wires.

In retrospect the dealer that set it up never told me anything about the anti-skate nor did he do a very good job on aligning the cartridge. All of the parts for the anti-skate as well as the rod use for setting the azimuth were never even opened, he just eyeballed it. So if there was some kind of a coil spring it was never included.

The mechanical device that they recommend not using did a good job on holding the arm stable for the grooveless test. Nor could I tell for sure if I have it set up right.

I bought the Scout se which was a scout with a different platter so maybe it didn’t come with this wire. When I read the manual it raises more questions than it answers.

post a picture

 

Peter at Soundsmith has said that you can get antiskateing close on a blank disk by adjusting so the stylus moves slowly towards the label. The adjustment VPI suggests is performed by twisting the wire that comes out of the top of the tonearm and plugging it back in with more or less twists.. The whole tonearm design seems finicky to me but it probably works fine if set up correctly.

 

I ran my Scoutmaster for a long time without anti-skate, I began to worry about wear on the stylus and inner record groove. So I untwisted the wire to even and then started using the supplied anti-skate device with just enough anti-skate to stop the stylus from being snapped across the record surface when lowering it on to the record. Seems to be working properly and sounds great...

 

If you ask me that is kind of Mickey Mouse. My wires never had any additional twists and it clearly skated toward the center rather quickly and now with it set up as in the photo it plays and sounds fine and the needle drops on the record smoother something I had not thought of till jcmusic's post. It also played and tracked well before.

 

Yes but all designs are a series of tradeoffs. This design seems to have an finicky azimuth that could be affected by both anti skate methods as well as dynamic forces during playback. There are many who think the sound is worth the tradeoff though. My Well tempered arm has also had complaints about azimuth stability but I like the performance overall.

 

I'm no expert on VPI arms, but isn't Harry's theory that you don't need any anti-skate for a uni-pivot? And that the add-on mechanical anti-skate is offered as a market compromise?
When I ran the original Well-Tempered (similar but different), i never really had a problem- the fluid bath, when filled to the correct level, and the fishing line that held the arm to the 'float' seemed to work fine- i used all kinds of cartridges in that arm, from Grados, to Van de Hul, to a Lyra Parnassus.

 

That's more or less what I remembered and because of the disclaimer I never tested it on the groveless track. When I did last week it moved quick. I estimate that it would take 2 seconds to travel completely across a record side. So now I'm using the fishing line "thingy."

 

FWIW, if there is a really good set-up person in your neck of the woods (i know of one in NY with lots of VPI experience, but not Chicago), it's worth paying them to visit and walk you through set-up, so you can do it yourself in the future. I did this with my current arm (which isn't terribly 'tweaky' but complex, e.g. air-bearing). Once I learned the 'tricks,' I became very good at making sure it was dialed in.

 

I am not real sure about this, I think maybe what he meant was that the wire twisted would provide enough anti skate for the uni pivot arm. I just can't see not using anti skate at all, makes no sense. Just my opinion though...

 

I think you are right. Here's what VPI said in one of its manuals for set up:

"VPI has conducted careful listening tests and determined that every tonearm we tried sounded better with its mechanical anti-skating disabled and the tracking force very slightly increased..
VPI has a unique solution to anti-skating: the coiled wire of the JMW Memorial Tonearm acts as a spring and pushes the arm back without affecting the sound quality. You now have the option of installing a mechanical anti-skate for those that want it. "

 

The unstable behavior is because it is a unipivot. Your Well Tempered table had a much more stable pivot as it was heavily fluid damped.
-Bill

 

Here is a fairly straighforward explanation of anti-skate and unipivots from an old post on the vinyl asylum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=183830

 

You need anti-skate to play records as best as they can be played. You just cannot implement anti-skating easily on a unipivot arm, so it's easier to try to justify not using it or that the arm wire itself is enough. The addition of an anti-skating device wasn't a market compromise, rather a patch to address the reality of how tonearms behave. The OP's experiments with both methods illustrate this clearly. The only marketing compromise has been the spin on the solutions.

Unipivots can have very low friction but that virtue is often overshadowed by their many other undesirable traits. The best arms IME have been gimbaled with very low friction bearings and well designed anti-skating devices. The better gimbaled designs can be much more practical as well, offering less fuss, and are less prone to damage as the bearings can be self contained designs.
-Bill

 

Don't disagree, but what i meant by 'marketing compromise' was that VPI believed mechanical antiskate was antithetical to its design, but offered it because some users felt more comfortable with it. I think the above quote from the VPI manual says as much, no?

 

Bill - Will you elaborate? I only ask because I'm curious and respect your opinion. PM me if necessary.

 

Coincidently, Jim Pendleton, who makes the AIVS fluid, just sent me a note saying he'd like to chime in, but for some reason, can't get on the forum to do so, but offered to help the OP if the OP calls him. Jim is a good guy and has dealt with VPI gear for years. I think you can find him at Osage Audio. FWIW, I'm not shilling for him, but was talking to him last week, and he happened to send me an email about this thread.
Out for now~ too nice to stay in doors!
best,

 

It is definitely antithetical to its design but I think the marketing aspect has been to downplay the importance of anti-skating rather than to acknowledge it. They have always introduced add-on products for their customers to buy, so the addition of yet another item to sell is of no surprise. I am not saying that the products are not well made nor that they do not sound good, I am just illuminating the marketing that surrounds the product. I have quite a few customers who own some of their products and have set-up and sold a few of them which have come through the shop myself.
-Bill

 

In a word, it's instability. You need to understand two things about Lp playback to see this. One is that the Lp playback up until the point that the signal is generated and being sent down the arm wiring, is entirely mechanical and functions by transmitting vibration. Secondly that everything causes vibration and the signal generator (in the cartridge) cannot discriminate vibration by cause or source. So to properly playback an Lp two basic things are required of a tonearm, one is to properly track the record groove and the other is to not introduce any vibration of its own into the playback interface. The best way to achieve the second principal IMO is to form an absolutely stable platform for the cartridge. This is most typically done with the use of gimbaled tonearms as they allow freedom of movement while keeping the interface stable and costs down to a reasonable level (in most designs!). A linear tracking approach can also achieve this and a clear example of this can be seen in Bill Hart's avatar. By contrast, a unipivot is easily disturbed by any external vibration and of particular concern here is that created by the record itself. It should be easy to see how tracking a record groove can be difficult when the arm is being moved out of the correct plane of alignment by the vibrations on the record itself. The unipivot takes a couple of short cuts to arrive at a cost effective solution for playback, notable are very low bearing friction, often they are cheaper to manufacture, and are easier to implement. The time and trouble that can be experienced trying to get one optimized for and during playback can be daunting and many users, including myself just don't like the way they bobble around when trying to do virtually anything with them. Interestingly, the ability of a unipivot to right itself into proper orientation via is pitch and roll through the groove is smooth enough to create a warm, smooth sounding playback, even with it's other issues. So they can sound very good, if different from other arm types.

That was the design and operational bit. The concern about damage is due to the ease of assembly also necessitates both assembly and disassembly and this exposes the bearing surfaces. I have seen a couple with damaged bearings due to mishandling. A gimbaled arm typically has its bearings well protected. Linear tracking arms have some exposed bearing surfaces as well but do not typically require as many assembly and disassembly proceedures, if any as opposed to a unipivot. Most gimbaled arms never require any.
-Bill

 

I would do this but as far as the basic setup I'm somewhat sure I have it. However an experienced person might offer other suggestions that may help with my setup. I recently made some big changes that included a new preamp and onboard PS and the logistics of the setup required me to move my TT to a different location on the shelving. The TT still sits on a signal guard 2 isolation platform.

 

As I mentioned upthread, Jim Pendleton offered to give you some help over the phone. See my post for his company name, you can look him up and call him. He's a good guy and offered to do this on his own initiative after seeing this thread.
Good luck!

 

There have been some very informative posts and I will contact Jim later in the week.
As I was reading this post I fetched a design for a sandbox that my current Signal guard 2 would sit on. It would likely be a waste of time because when I play a record music is played in the other room or on headphones never in the room with the TT. So it is likely isolated enough.
I’m working on a needle drop Van Morrison Moon dance reissue and later I’ll post a sample so we can hear what I’m talking about. Many would certainly say it’s fine even without the brickwall filter.