Audio Technica AT12SA cartridge

How good is this cartridge with the ATN12S stylus with the Shibata tip?

 

Anyone? whats the price?

 

An excellent cartridge, even long after its heyday. It has been discontinued for ages; what do you mean by "what's the price?"

 

For how much did it sell with the stylus in?

How does it compare to a JICO Sas N97xe?

 

The reason i ask is because i bought a TT that came with it, a Pioneer TT. But i put in my JICO Sas and now i got the AT as a spare.

 

Personal opinion: The AT is a better cart than the Shure. But your opinion may be different than mine; you'd have to listen to both and see which you prefer. But there's certainly nothing wrong with an AT12Sa, especially with an original stylus in good shape.

This thread might be helpful:

Audio Technica AT12S vs Shure M97XE - Vinyl Engine

 

Thanks ill do that.

 

This was my first magnetic cartridge which I bought with my first Pioneer belt-drive turntable, the PL-12D-II, when both were current models. I planned to get into quadraphonic back then but actually didn't do that until 10 or so years ago.
After setting it up, I played it through a pre-amp into my RCA contemporary console's auxillary inputs, which I also used for my stereo cassette deck. When I started playing my new turntable setup, I was not impressed with the sound at all. It brought out every tick and pop which I had never heard on any phonograph before. I went back to the stereo store and ask them, what is this k-rap? They told me that the AT12SA had a Shibata stylus and should only be used on CD-4 quadraphonic records and that it would pick up everything that was in a stereo groove because of it's wide frequency range topping out at 50khz. I then bought an AT14 with an elliptical stylus and that sounded so much better. Better yet was the Grado cartridge I replaced it with. Now, back in the 1970's, all these cartridges only cost about $20. and the Pioneer was around $100.
I learned my lesson way back then. You do NOT use a Shibata or CD-4 cartridge on anything but a CD-4 Discrete quadraphonic record.
Today, for my quadraphonic system, I use a Shure M24H, which was Shure's version of a wide-range CD-4 quadraphonic cartridge. I experimented with it by playing stereo and mono records. Like back in the day with my original AT, it brought out every defect in the record groove.
AT's claim to fame was the Shibata stylus for the CD-4 records. No matter what brand it was, if it was sold as a CD-4 quadraphonic cartridge, it was an AT in the box. Overall, I have never been impressed with any AT cartridge. They just didn't have it as cartridges go. I've had many different major brand cartridges and every one of them has beat the AT's.
Many say that the AT cartridges are some of the best out there now, but then they rip the current AT turntables without ever owning or using one. Go figure. No matter who actually builds them AT products were specifically designed by AT. I think it's probably buyer's remorse for blowing a bunch of bucks on a so-called 'audiophile' turntable which looks like it was marked for toy stores.
That said, stay away from any Shibata stylus or quadraphonic cartridge unless you are going to play quadraphonic records with it.

 

I run a Shibata stylus on my AT150mlx......................I'm quite puzzled by your insistence to not play anything but quad records. Many of us are running the ATN-150SA in our 150mlx bodies, now that the original stylus is long discontinued.

 

The reason I advise NOT using a Shibata stylus on anything but a CD-4 discrete quadraphonic record is because that is the reason they were created in the first place. From my experience with Shibata stylii from the time they were introduced, I have found that they give disastrous results when used to play a regular stereo or mono record. I wasn't the only one who felt that way 45+ years ago because the stereo stores started advising people NOT to buy them unless they were going to use them on a quadraphonic system because they wouldn't like the sound on a regular stereo system.
I realize that a Shibata stylus will get every sound out of the grooves, including every defect, but me, I don't like hearing ticks and pops. This is the main reason I jumped with both feet into CD's and their utter silence. I've never stopped buying records but am heavily invested in CD's
Comparing the records from back into the early 1900's to the current resurgence in vinyl records, I can tell which of the record manufacturers are experienced and which are not. Many of these new start-ups are using decades old worn equipment and it shows. Newer companies like QRP along with older companies like URP have definite QC problem and are very inconsistent in quality of records. In Germany, the newer companies like Optimal stick out like a sore thumb compared to older companies like Pallas. Even MPO in France is more consistent in quality than Optimal, and the French are not known for going in the correct direction.
No, no Shibata on anything but CD-4 records for me. If someone likes the way they sound, then more power to them.

 

I have the ATS12 Shibata. I think it's brilliant, very warm, rich tube-like sound. Very low surface noise and IGD on my Akai AP-307.

 

I think you will find modern Shibata designs are different. They are being sold for stereo use specifically - who has quad CD4 records these days? I have a couple I bought used out of curiosity and at a good auction price at the time. Anyway I've just purchased an At33SA so will see if it is worse for ticks and pops than the elliptical 33EV. It's supposed to sound a lot better. In my experience about everything above conical will not hide bad pops and clicks with differences being marginal. TT and phono stage design appear more relevant as to how unwanted noises are portrayed. Not encountered the cartridge yet that made pressing faults miraculously disappear.

 

I found that the ATS12shibata opened up the soundstage, giving it a wide 'cinematic' feel on many records. Revolver in mono (2014 pressing), UK (original mix) of Nursery Cryme, and Nick Davis remix/half-speed master of Foxtrot are just three of the records that sing with this cart. Japanese pressings and MoFi sound wonderful too. Really sweet, old-school analogue sound.

 

Great. So ill keep mine and do a shootout with the JICO Sas.

 

As I said, I didn't like the sound reproduced by a CD-4 cartridge with the Shibata stylus. Now, it could have been the cartridge itself causing much of the problem. With a CD-4 cartridge having at least a 50khz peak might have been the problem. Using a more normal stereo cartridge, with a peak of 20-25khz, may help hide the defects.
As far as who has CD-4 records these days, probably more than you would think. They sell tons of them through eBay and in used record shops, they go out as fast as they come in. Quadraphonic equipment prices are going through the roof. Maybe because people are used to multi-channel home theater and multi-channel optical media by now, they have discovered quadraphonic and those like me who couldn't afford to jump into it with both feet in the 70's, we can now. I believe he found a bunch of NOS AT CD-4 cartridges several years ago, but there was a guy named Ed Saunders who offered them and was sold out fairly quickly. His company is still around, but he is retired.

 

So i prefer the Jico Sas to the AT with Shibata tip.

I want to sell the AT12
How much could i ask for it?

 

I have the 12S that needs a new stylus and I have an 14SA with NOS original stylus. Someday I might dive into quad but I see no reason not to run the carts on regular records!

 

Playing stereo records with the Shibata-equipped AT cartridges back in the early-70's was the biggest mistake I ever made. There is no need to play a stereo record with a cartridge with a 50khz top end. That with the Shibata stylus brought out every tick and pop that may have not been evident before.

 

I like AT carts, they are nice and detailed. Yes, if your vinyl condition is not very good, you will hear it, but my records are in very good to minty condition. The carts are also "bright", but it is easier to tone down a record
than have no life in the sound. Shure carts that I have heard always sound dark and muffled, like someone put a blanket over the speaker. No wonder they went out of business.

 

I have 3 Shibata-equipped AT cartridges and they get all the use.

 

While I respect your opinion, it is just that. As the old saying goes, "saying it with conviction, don't make it true."

 

I have a Stanton 881S with an original low hour D81S stylus I bought new in 1980, with a stereohedron profile which I have read is their proprietary version of a Shibata, and can say it still sounds amazing and does not accentuate surface noise IMHO. If you start with a clean LP it plays very quiet. I have old vinyl I bought in the 70's that were barely played and they are dead quiet.

As far as lower frequency response hiding defects, the Human ear basically tops out at 20 KHz at birth and our ability to hear high frequency sounds starts to diminish as we age to where a middle age person tops out at between 12-16kHZ assuming no hearing damage. The reason I bring this up is I can't see how having a frequency range up to 50kHz would contribute to a cartridge picking up more surface noise than one that peaks at 20-25kHZ?

Frequency Range of Human Hearing - The Physics Factbook

 

Well i dont want mine. If anyone wants to buy it PM me.

 

As I've stated before, my solution to the AT with the Shibata stylus was replacing it with an AT14E. Much less adverse noise and better sound overall. I have old vinyl too, dating back into the 50's plus brand new vinyl issued recently. Particularly vinyl of the 1960's and into the 1970's were cut to be played with a conical stylus. RCA Victor went to the extreme with their Dynagroove technology. Playing these old records with a conical stylus makes them sound the best to me. Lately, I have been recording my classical records from the 70's and into the 80's to hard drive. Trying several different cartridges, I have settled on a Pickering NP/AC, with a conical stylus, which make these records sound best to me. I also have a custom elliptical stylus but still the conical sounds best to me.
I have reserved using cartridges like a Shure M97xe on the newer "audiophile" records. Using higher quality materials and cutting the masters with an elliptical stylus in mind, these sound to me better than their original releases from the 1950's and later, as far as surface and adverse noises are concerned.

 

I am not questioning the experience you had mating a shibata stylus with your AT cartridge producing unacceptible noise as there could be a lot of factors that caused this. Could have been a bad cartridge/ stylus marriage, might have been your setup, not all aftermarket stylus are equal, etc., etc.

I was challenging your assertions

1. A shibata stylus was created for quad only and will magnify surface noise if used for stereo. This has not been mine and the experience of other posters here who use these types of stylus.
2. A cartridge with a frequency response up to 50kHz could have accentuated the suface noise more than one that tops out at 20-22kHz. This is unlikely as the average adult human can't hear frequencies above 16kHz.

You may well have experienced increased surface noise with your setup but not for the reasons you claimed IMHO.