Audio Technica AT440MLa vs Shure M97xE w/Jico SAS

Tastes differ. Some people may have rolled off systems/speakers, or they have a preference for treble boost, etc. I tend to prefer rolled off over too bright, if it's not flat. Some people can put up with, or prefer bright, but I don't care for it at all. That's just my own taste, so judge that as compared to one's own preferences which may differ.

But the stock 440 most certainly boosts the treble quite audibly, at least in my system. The FR measurements I've seen bear this out quite clearly. Some people might be just fine with that boost, or it may aid a rolloff in their system, etc. I couldn't put up with it, so I tweaked mine down by ear so it was what I wanted and closer to flat (flat as compared by ear to my CD side, which measures pretty flat).

I'm not criticizing the 440, I absolutely love it, but just providing info. I would hate it if people ditched it or bashed it because of the treble boost without giving it a chance tweaked, or just with a simple EQ if you want to do that.

As always one person's bright is another's detailed. One person's rich midrange is another person's dull & rolled-off.

My disclosure of taste is that I generally prefer flat, can deal with rolled off, but I can't put up with bright which for me is grating & fatiguing.

 

This mod looks like fun!

 

One person's fun is another's PITA, but I'm glad it looks like fun to you! Definitely looks worthwhile & interesting!

 

Ok.

 

Well, thanks for your explanation, Wiggles.

I'm the opposite, really. I can deal with a bit bright, but rolled off really irritates me.

 

I went thru the cart/stylus maze recently searching for the right combo for my vintage system. I thought the old Shure V15 IV with an SAS would come out on top but actually I wound up prefering the M97xE with SAS better. It was close though. The AT440mla was third after the SAS equipped carts. I like classic rock and appreciate a cart that digs deep for that bass while delivering clear pure highs that get my attention and the M97xE with SAS covers all those requirements in spades. Just my 2 cents. Hearing is subjective and your milage may vary.

 

They like the bright sound. Many of us like well-balanced, more neutral sound. We don't want the extra boost at 10,000 kHz.

Everyone acknowledges that the AT 440mla and the AT 150mlx carts are bright if the common resistance loading is used. Perhaps your pre-amp is at closer to the recommended loading this cart requires.

Do you have an equalizer? Play a record with that cart. Drop the 10,000kHz fader or knob about 1db with a Q of around 20. That will give you a rough idea of how the cart would sound if it were flatter.

It's possible to listen to treble (or bass) boost for so long that it sounds normal to you, and if you finally hear a flatter frequency response, that flatter one will sound dull, weak, or lifeless until you adjust to it.

Like I said before, my preamp is ruler-flat, and it may sound a bit bright to some people. But that, coupled with that AT cart is unbearable. I checked out the specs on your Bryston's phono amp section, and it looks like it's measured flat too. So, unless there is a trable roll-off somewhere eles in your system, like in the speakers, i'm hearing the same thing you are. Brightness!

 

The photos below . . . my word, they're so pretty -- !

 

The 150mlx, the cart both Dave and I use, exhibits the same brightness as it's cheaper sister, the 440mla, although the 150 is smoother.

 

Another forum member...ocdman used to post test graphs of the cart and others. If you do a search, you can find tons of info about the brightness of this cart, and the 150mlx.

 

I had a 150MLX for half a year and would not describe it as being as bright as the 440MLa. Sounded more balanced overall & not as tipped up in the treble as its less-stellar little sibling.

 

Ok. No EQ at the moment. Yes, the Bryston phono stage is just that. The speakers have titanium domes and supertweeters, so I doubt it's those. I wish some other AT owners would pipe in and extoll the virtues of the cartridges. I don't think they're bad at all, and are superior to the Shures.

 

Been very happy with the M97xE w/Jico SAS. No experience with Audio Technica AT440MLa.

I play a mix of both used and new vinyl. They're always cleaned with a Nitty Gritty though.

 

Like I said, the AT carts are not bad at all! You know I like how well it reproduces the tiny things in the music. It will bring out sound that is on the record, but that the Shure M97xE will not.

My first carts, when I got into turntables in college were all Audio Technicas. But, I believe they all had a kind of a tweaked sound. The Grado black I tried was worse! That's why I started buying Shure carts. I read how great the M97xE was for the price. I went through two of them. I was happy until I realized that it was too soft on transients. When I got the opportunity to go upward at a good price, I got the AT150mlx, after reading that the 440 series was too bright.

 

Like I said, the AT carts are not bad at all! You know I like how well it reproduces the tiny things in the music. It will bring out sound that is on the record, but that the Shure M97xE will not.

My first carts, when I got into turntables in college were all Audio Technicas. But, I believe they all had a kind of a tweaked sound. The Grado black I tried was worse! That's why I started buying Shure carts. The M97xE. I was happy until I realized that it was too soft on transients.

But, I really want a cart that's ruler flat and tracks like a champ.

 

I think some of you guys are just way too adverse and sensitive to this alleged "brightness." Perhaps making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't know what else to say, really. Other than to each is own.

 

I find my AT440ML significantly hotter than neutral over 10kHz too, but it doesn't bother me as I place more importance on maximum detail retrieval and minimum tracking distortion, two criteria which the AT440ML really excels in. And as I mostly play vinyl for needle dropping, I can easily EQ the recordings down a bit over 10kHz on the computer, thereby getting the best of both worlds. This however is not as easy if you listen to your vinyl in 'real time' and do not have the facility to home in on EQ around ~10kHz (most amps treble controls are centred on a frequency lower than this).

On a side note, I read somewhere that the newer incarnation of the AT440ML, called the AT440MLa, has a flatter response up top. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

 

For those out there looking for the Shure M97 cartridge option. In addition to the available M97xE, there were other M97 cartridges from decades past. The first M97, introduced in 1978, was the M97 Era IV and it's variants (the Radio Shack RXT4 cartridge was identical, except gold in color instead of off-white). I also have a Shure Tracer 1 and a private label DT50HE which are also the same (the Tracer 1 has a staggered pin location, different from any of the other M97 Era IV variants I've seen - I never did a close comparison or resistance check to determine whether it was different from any of the other Era IV variants). I should mention that at one time, Shure had a range of styli available for the Era IV cartridge, from the conical "B" or "G", to elliptical "EJ" or "ED", to the hyperelliptical "HE" and even a 78 rpm stylus (N978E). ...The next generation was the Encore series (similar in appearance to the type V, or current generation), the M97HE - it's stylus guard was black in color and featured a HyperElliptical "HE" stylus, but lacked the telescopic cantilever of the Era IV. There was also the V15 RS (Radio Shack) and it's identical variants, the V15-Pro-S (Circuit City?) and VST-III (my theory is this was merely a M97 with the hyperelliptical stylus/ microwall beryllium cantilever of the V15-V, since their VNSE3HE styli were interchangeable with the M97). Also of interest: When available, the VN5xMR stylus would fit any of the aforementioned cartridges as well, and vice-versa (added note: if fitting an Era IV stylus to a type V style M97, Me97 (or V15-RS variant as well as the VxMR), the SHURE nameplate would have to be trimmed off for best fit- I know this from personal experience).

Why do I mention all this? The Jico SAS stylus for the M97xE should fit all of these aforementioned cartridges.

 

I went from a 120E to a 440mla, mainly because I wanted it's supposedly superior tracking abilities. That part has been lovely. I do find it bright compared to the 120E but there's much more clarity. Tough to track inner-grooves can sometimes sound piercing and shrill - probably they have too much treble anyway. On the other hand, those same tracks were untrackable with my previous 120E.

I've been listening to Kevin Gray's mastering of Paranoid, which many here dismiss for being too bright. So I've been listening to it with a 440mla, no less! Sounds awesome to me, so what do I know?

 

My dad's hi-fi until the mid 80s was a Thorens TD165/Shure/dynaco/advent system. He had an M95ed and then "upgraded" to the M97 in the early 80s. We both think the M95 sounded better. I didn't like the M97 at all, or the V15. Later on, I revived the M95 with a replacement stylus for a friend, and I still think it's a nice cart.

For all anyone wants to say about the tipped up upper octaves of the AT, it's undeniable that the Shure is tipped down, and is in the musically more important upper mids and low treble. You can call it neutral all you want, but it is not. The AT screws up cymbals and emphasizes some harmonics (which isn't all that unpleasant) but the Shure messes up the fundamentals of musical notes, not just some upper overtones.

Something like the AT is going to sound better if you have speakers with full bass, as it will help balance the treble.

 

Or, you need to visit an ENT specialist!

 

Well, Jico does make specific replacement styli for all of those carts. I would play it safe and stick to the correct stylus replacement for the specified cart.

 

My two main criteria are frequency response and tracking. I do needledrops, and I have finally nailed the best curve to flatten out the AT 150mlx in Audition. If the 150mlx is still too bright, that means that the 440mla is still too bright. The problem is with the loading. Most phono stages do not have user-adjustable loading options, so most users are stuck with whatever the phono stage has unless they are competent enough to fix the problem on their own.

The AT440mla came out in 2006 or 2007, so it's been a few years. The cart is still too bright. I guess AT doesn't change anything because many people obviously like the brightness.

 

You do, for tinnitus!

 

Sounds great, no?