Audiophiles going to Extremes!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Reid Smith, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. ggg71

    ggg71 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Or as Don Henley said - they don’t build hearses with luggage racks!
     
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  2. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Do you play any of your records, or do you just collect them? To get that "10%" thing... :winkgrin:
     
  3. Splungeworthy

    Splungeworthy Forum Rezidentura

    He probably uses Monoprice interconnects. Gotta save money somewhere!
     
  4. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Ya, "$100,000 speakers" - and no tone controls. :laugh::sigh:
     
  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    Tone controls as in bass, treble and balance? Why would you want that?
     
  6. Chris Schoen

    Chris Schoen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland, U.S.A.
    Because sometimes the source is not perfect. You may have "perfect" equipment, but when you play that record, or cd, it may have not been mastered "perfect".
    Sometimes a room is not "perfect". Tone controls enable a bit of correction.
     
    JackG likes this.
  7. riddlemay

    riddlemay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Just so I'm up to speed, what does "DR" stand for in this context? And what does a DR rating signify?
     
  8. manxman

    manxman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Isle of Man
    DR, or Dynamic Range, measures the difference between the quietest and loudest elements during a passage of music. Compact disc and digital files can handle a higher DR than vinyl without technical problems, but perversely the tendency in recent years has been to squash the DR of the digital version whilst preserving dynamic range on vinyl issues. In general, masterings with a higher DR sound more natural and less fatiguing (and can be played much louder), though it's possible to have too much dynamic range as well as too little.
     
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  9. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    True, but how would you know that?
    I realize that in the 10,000$ price range it might not be a big deal, but at least in the lower price ranges I think its important to know what a product wants to be. Simple economical budget restrictions kick in. If you want to make an amp thats "hifi" grade for 500$ you dont want to spend a part of that budget on accurate tone controls that color the sound chain when in use and also restricts the manufacturing budget. This is why I personally tend to prefer EU brands of equipment, because of their minimalist style. I want an accurate reproduction of the source, not having to worry about toning controls. I realize that its not perfect, because it simply cant either.

    At least I get an accurate recreation of the records sound. Which for me is valuable since I want to be able to evaluate individual pressing sounds and know which is superior for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    Dave likes this.
  10. RhodyDave125

    RhodyDave125 Streetwalkin' Cheetah

    I need $100,000...
     
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  11. RhodyDave125

    RhodyDave125 Streetwalkin' Cheetah

    Man, that solar power traveled like 90 million miles through space, who knows what kind of junk it was tainted by. For PURE power, you want nuclear. Set up a mini nuke reactor in your living room to power your gear!
     
  12. TVC15

    TVC15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    True audiophiles correct for room and speaker deficiencies in an effort to get closer to original artists intent. Why people insist on listening to their rooms and speakers and not the music is beyond me. The removal of tone controls is a gimmick designed to sell more artificially voiced gear. Why give someone ability to control sound when you can instead sell someone 'up the chain' for a little more bass boost?
     
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  13. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    If you know the artists intent then fine. Seems to me like most people get it to make the music sound how they personally like it though. And please, do read my follow up
    "True, but how would you know that?
    I realize that in the 10,000$ price range it might not be a big deal, but at least in the lower price ranges I think its important to know what a product wants to be. Simple economical budget restrictions kick in. If you want to make an amp thats "hifi" grade for 500$ you dont want to spend a part of that budget on accurate tone controls that color the sound chain when in use and also restricts the manufacturing budget. This is why I personally tend to prefer EU brands of equipment, because of their minimalist style. I want an accurate reproduction of the source, not having to worry about toning controls. I realize that its not perfect, because it simply cant either.

    At least I get an accurate recreation of the records sound. Which for me is valuable since I want to be able to evaluate individual pressing sounds and know which is superior for me."
     
  14. Ski Bum

    Ski Bum Happy Audiophile

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Wouldn't the utility pole guy have been better off (better sound and less money) using a massive rechargeable battery-powered setup? If you're going to the ultimate, battery power will be a lot cleaner than anything from the power company. There are some excellent battery-powered phono pre-amps out there, but it is really not practicable for power amps unless you are a bit crazy. If you are going to have your own power pole, however, you qualify as sufficiently crazy to invest in the battery array.
     
  15. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    all the time worrying and wasted they could be enjoying the music...this is not about music it's about sickness...
     
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  16. Rastus

    Rastus New Member

    Location:
    Australia
    That's what I loved about my vintage sansui amps,
    You won't be happy with every recording you play being it record,cd etc. and having the ability to adjust the bass,mids and treble can save you from being on the hunt looking for a different sound from a different pressing.Plus it's an easy way to keep your ears happy:).
     
    TVC15 likes this.
  17. Helom

    Helom Forum Resident

    Location:
    U.S.
    That's why tone controls typically come with a neutral, defeat, or off position. :righton:

    It's not as though they require expensive parts or R&D. The "minimalist" concept just leads to more $ or € for the manufacturer's bank accounts. Most brands that include them also have the advantage of scale economies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  18. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    Right, but again, if you are going to use the tonal controls you wont ever switch it off, otherwise whats the purpose?
    And if you dont want any tonal controls then its great that you can turn them off, but what if the money spent on manufacturing and investing in making a good tonal control system could have been put into making a pure amplifier instead?
    So either way its really not useful to switch it off, unless you are sort of a mix between the two scenarios.
     
    Dave likes this.
  19. TVC15

    TVC15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    It is doubtful your listening space is setup in a purely neutral environment. With perfectly neutral, perfectly positioned, speakers.

    The tone controls can help you avoid all that stuff -- and if you know your room, and have a reasonable ear, the corrections are hardly difficult to make. If necessary, a nice set of neutral studio cans can be useful. Talking Sony MDR-7506's here, nothing fancy. Pros don't mix with Grados.

    There's also correcting for poor mastering choices, a particularly nasty sounding LP, bass traps, overly bright rooms... can't do that without some basic form of EQ compensation.

    But I do understand the pitfalls of this hobby, and it's easy to fall into a trap of listening to your stuff moreso than listening to the tunes.

    I have heard bad tone controls -- those on my old Arcam a65+ were garbage... sucked all the air out of the sound... and I was forced to usually run in 'tone defeat' mode. But thats on the designers. The tone correction on my Mac is excellent.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2018
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    If I can hear the poor mastering I can realize the sound of the record is not for me, and so I will look elsewhere. If you just want to hear things how you like it then thats fine. But I still dont see how you know the artists intent of what the sound should be exactly.
     
  21. TVC15

    TVC15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    My 30 year old NAD 7240pe (not currently in use) was a $500 integrated in 1987. Has an excellent tone circuit. We aren't talking rocket science here.

    So you'd rather take a pass than try to enjoy the music? Our philosophies are completely different.

    On corrections enabling artist intent, I think you are misunderstanding me. If you've got a nasty bass trap due to less than ideal speaker placement, you'll know it. If you room is overly reflective, you should be able to tell that also. Speakers with nasty mid-bass hump? Dial it back.

    If your vinyl is bass shy, which does happen, it's obvious. If you run across a shrill CD mastering.... umm, known to happen.... u get the drift. Dial it in until it sounds right. Reference against some studio cans which aren't subject to room interaction.

    Now if the real issue is OCFA (obsessively compulsive fiddly adjustments) then that's a different issue. If you simply aren't trusting your ears, learn to trust them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2018
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  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    I wouldn't take any of that advice.
     
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  23. 56GoldTop and TVC15 like this.
  24. TVC15

    TVC15 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Of course not. Power in the hands of the listener likely goes against the mastering engineer’s belief system. No crime there, but a lot of folks out there suffering with no tone adjustments in less than ideal listening spaces.

    Is that what you are advocating?
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    You've read the thoughts on this that I've written here on this topic for 15 years and you ask that? Simple tone controls can NEVER do a good job, too wide, too useless, more harm than good. If you need control, get a Parametric and learn how to use it. A bass or treble control will never work.
     
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