axis: bold as love - different mixes available on official CD releases

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mal, Apr 26, 2004.

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  1. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Further to my brief description of the differences between my two CDs of axis: bold as love on this thread, here is a full description of the differences.

    The two discs I have are the West German Polydor edition (cat. no. 813 572-2 and has this credit on the inlay card "Digital engineering by Carlos Olms London") and the Experience Hendrix Japanese mini-LP sleeve edition (cat. no. UICY-9008).

    The questions that still need to be answered are:

    (i) Do these two CDs represent the original UK and US mixes and, if so, which is which?
    (ii) Do all editions of the Experience Hendrix release use the same mix as the Japanese edition?
    (iii) Is the West German Polydor CD unique or did the mix on that disc appear on other CD releases of the album prior to the EH remasters?

    Those with original UK and US LP pressings of the album should be able to identify which mix is which using the notes below, thus answering (i).

    Hopefully, by people comparing other versions they have of this album on CD to the notes below, answers to (ii) and (iii) should be forthcoming.

    The following track by track comparison was made by listening to the Experience Hendrix (EH) disc and noting significant details on the mix for the track in question and then listening to that track on the Polydor disc and noting significant differences to the EH mix.

    As you will see, for all the tracks apart from Bold As Love different mixes were used for the two CDs:

    --------------------------------------------------

    EXP
    ---

    EH:

    Bass starts in centre
    Then interviewer (Mitch) on left
    Jimi on right
    Guitar starts in right then pans left and right to end
    Just after guitars start Mitch appears in centre and then left.

    Polydor:

    Similar to above but Mitch never appears in the centre on this mix.

    Up From The Skies:
    -----------------

    EH:

    Drums in middle, guitar left, bass centre, Jimi's vocal right

    At "I have lived here before" the vocal and guitar swap sides with each phrase.

    Panning of guitar and vocals continues to end.


    Polydor:

    Similar at beginning but guitar on right (noticeable guitar reverb on left).
    No panning of vocals but guitar is panned left and right from the middle section
    onwards.

    Spanish Castle Magic:
    --------------------

    EH:

    Guitars left and right, drums/bass/vocals centre.
    Quite a lot of reverb on vocals.
    Guitar solo pans between left, centre and (less so) right.


    Polydor:

    Subtle differences in the panning of the guitar solos.

    Wait Until Tomorrow:
    -------------------

    EH:

    First chord loud and central -> riff in right channel (snare rattle?)
    Vocals a little to left
    Drum fills distorted (all drum channels in centre)
    Fades and then goes straight into next track

    Polydor:

    Whole intro in centre.
    Vocals still a little left of centre.
    Drum fills not quite as distorted?
    Few seconds gap between end of fade and next track.

    Ain't No Telling:
    ----------------

    EH:

    Guitar intro - first two chords on left, then chord in middle
    Lead guitar right, rhythm guitar left, drums, vocals and bass in middle
    Lead panned left briefly and then back to the right after middle section.

    Polydor:

    Guitar intro - all three guitar chords on left
    (panning to middle before drums come in).

    Lead guitar isn't panned to left at any stage after intro.


    Little Wing:
    -----------

    EH:

    Intro - guitar slightly left of centre, bells centre
    Some effects (reverb) return on left channel.
    Drums bass and vocals centre.
    Vocal has phasing and has reverb return on right channel.
    Guitars slightly left and right of centre.
    3 second gap before next track

    Polydor:

    Rattling noise appears (slightly left of centre)toward end of guitar intro
    and carries on into first verse.
    Drums have more reverb?
    Vocals have more prominent phasing effect and no reverb return on right.
    Lead in centre.
    5 second gap before next track


    If Six Was Nine:
    ---------------

    EH:

    All Vocals hard right.
    Guitar left, drums and bass just right of centre.

    Drums become phasey during Mitch's solo and pan a little left and right.

    Guitar break at end on left with backing vocal on right.
    Guitar then pans right and left with screeching guitar coming in on right
    and then panning left and right.

    Talking voice heard in fade out.

    Polydor:

    No phasing on Mitch's drums during his solo.
    Guitar break at end much more prominent and less confined to left during
    backing vocal phrase.

    Hard panning of everything near end.

    You Got Me Floatin':
    ------------------

    EH:

    Psychedelic intro - effects still heard dying away as band come in.
    Just before verse begins the effect is heard once more panning from left
    to right.

    Guitar right, drums and bass left, vocals centre

    Everything panned across stereo image during break.

    Polydor:

    Straight in without psychedelic effect.
    Effect used just before first verse but pans from right to left.

    No panning in break.


    Castles Made Of Sand:
    --------------------

    EH:

    Backwards guitar in left at beginning of intro joined by main
    guitar part on right with echo return on left

    Levels can be heard coming up on open mics towards end of intro allowing
    snare rattling to be heard

    Vocals, drums and bass centre - guitars as in intro.

    1st and 2nd chorus: vocals pan left on "eventually" then back to centre.
    3rd chorus: vocals pan left to right on "slips in the sea, eventually"
    ending back in the centre.

    Outro: Guitar starts on right and pans left and right getting more echoey
    as it fades.

    Polydor:

    Intro starts at point where the guitar in the right channel joins the
    backwards guitar. No echo return on left.

    Open mic levels up throughout intro allowing snare rattle to be heard
    from beginning of guitar picking.

    No panning on vocals.

    [approx. 2 second dropout on right channel in 2nd verse]

    Outro: guitar stays on left


    She's So Fine:
    -------------

    EH:

    Drums, bass and vocals in centre.
    Guitars left and right.

    Backing vocals drenched in reverb.

    Lead guitar pans across stereo image at end.

    Polydor:

    Lead guitar on right at end


    One Rainy Wish:
    --------------

    EH:

    Bass and drums in centre
    Various guitar parts across stereo image throughout.
    Verse - vocal left with main guitar parts centre and right.
    Chorus - double tracked vocals one on left channel, the other on right channel.
    Vocals panned left and right during ending.


    Polydor:

    Various different panning throughout


    Little Miss Lover:
    -----------------

    EH:

    Drums centre with hard left then right pan just as 1st verse begins.
    Vocal left, drums and bass centre, guitar right.

    Guitar panned left and right during solo.

    Backing vocals on right.


    Polydor:

    Less extreme panning as the drum intro goes into the 1st verse

    Different panning throughout.


    Bold As Love:
    ------------

    EH:

    Everything in centre at beginning.
    Large dose of reverb on drums and vocals.
    Subtle slapback echo on hi-hat

    Guitars overdubs on left and right for chorus.

    Guitar solo starts on hard left, panning between there and centre-left.

    Mitch's phasey drum break starts on left and pans around.

    Lead during phasey ending on left channel but briefly venturing across stereo
    image towards end.


    Polydor:

    Same mix.

    The only difference is that the edit into Mitch's phased drums is
    a little less clean. I guess they repaired the splice on the master for the
    EH release.




    :)
     
    Jack_Straw likes this.
  2. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Malc,



    Hello again, my friend!:wave:


    To answer your question...AFAIK, the US Reprise Lp should line up with the Polydor....this should be the original mix, PERIOD. Don't remember there being two different mixes of this album, to be honest...


    :ed:
     
  3. JWB

    JWB New Member

    I had no idea there were two mixes of Axis! :bigeek:
     
  4. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Well, obviously, something's up....the US Lp & Reprise CD should be identical in terms of mix, and it's that CD I referenced to Malc's descriptions....so obviously, there are two different mixes, though HOW that happened is a mystery to me, since remixing of that catalog has been spotty at best. Yes, the multis should exist for most of it, but not a lot has surfaced. Interesting, but I would guess all the Experience Hendrix editions should have the same mix as Malc has described.



    :ed:
     
  5. Paul K

    Paul K Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    The Reprise and the Polydor reissue, (which is the only one I have to go by) DO NOT line up.

    This is vinyl. CD I have no idea. But vinyl. It is different all over the place.

    This is true of AYE as well.
     
  6. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    I'm referencing the US Reprise CD, which, by Malc's description, lines up with the Polydor edition as he describes it. I've only checked ESP so far, but it seems to be correct.

    Curious that this one has no less than two mixes...can't say I've ever heard an alt. stereo mix of AYE or EL....not yet, anyway, or wasn't paying attention...



    :ed:
     
  7. Paul K

    Paul K Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I will accept that I could be wrong about AYE. But Axis - it is different!!!
     
  8. Marco S. Pompili

    Marco S. Pompili New Member

    Location:
    Rome Italy
    For what I heard through the years:
    Vinyl: Track uk and Reprise us are different (most of all on EXP, Spanish castle magic - voice buried in us mix -, Little wing, Castles made of sand and One rainy wish) The uk mix carried on all subsequent Polydor re releases (for example AYE/axis two-fer). The uk mix was also used here in Italy.
    Reprise cd and EH are the same us mix.
    Polydor Olms uses uk track mix
    There was a period (91 - 92) when then Polygram messed up with Hendrix again using the no noise Reprise Joe Gastwirt remastered tapes, using for example AYE uk cover and us running order, using us mix for Axis, and using us cover and remastering for EL.
    This is all I know
    EH japanese card sleeves are the same EH us
     
  9. bob g.

    bob g. Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Malc S said..
    "Well, I'll be.......
    The UK Polydor CD and the Japanese mini-LP sleeve (Experience Hendrix) CD of axis: bold as love use different mixes !!! ."

    Malc, sorry, but you have to be consistent. The above quote from the other thread is an instance where you switch from referring to W. German editions and then suddenly refer to the UK polydor. There are indeed older UK Polydor Axis cds, specificaly 847 243-2 , that are essentially the same as the EH mix as you describe it but still, IMO, are better, much better, masterings than any other similar mix. I received the UK 847 243-2 Polydor as part of the UFO LP size box that included the fancy LP size Mankowitz book and certificate, not to be confused with the MCA issue with Mankowitz cover. It appears as a UK Polydor. This is to re-enforce your finding the West-German Polydor different. The UK release of which I speak outwardly looks like the German with minimal early style booklet with the standard generic page of "compact disc" info but offers no mastering credit and has no red color logo on the actual disc.

    Funny that this week I saw a W-German like yours for sale on ebay: first thought that I would get it as an extra so I could return my UK cd to the box that I keep with my LPs. That is, have the German as a "listening copy". When the bidding got to only a moderate level I thought - screw it - I'm not that decadent - only need one. Now since your postings I realize they are different! :eek:
     
  10. Marco S. Pompili

    Marco S. Pompili New Member

    Location:
    Rome Italy
    I'm sorry, when I say Polydor uk I meant German because here arrived the German pressings. I don't have the cd here at the moment to check it out, but: The Olms edition came with classical Polydor logo, the other edition came without, and here it was issued as a part of box that contained AYE, Axis, EL TCOL. The other box issued at the same time included 4 live albums (I remember Monterey btw). IMO the original uk mix is the best. Have you ever noticed BTW that Foxy lady from the Reprise 90's remasters has the channel reversed, same for EH editions and original vinyl doesen't.
    P.S. my name is Marc
     
  11. bob g.

    bob g. Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Sorry Marc, but "Malc S" started the thread here, and another elsewhere. That is whom I addressed.
     
  12. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I have (2) US Reprise vinyl copies (a tan and red "Riverboat" label and a tan/tan Riverboat) and was unable to compare them to Malc's notes above (I had just given up the "media room" when I first read the post above), but - strangely enough - I did listen to the tan/red record over the weekend so it's still fresh.

    I hate to disagree with Ed's follow up, but the US Reprise vinyl seems to line up with the EH version (although I only remember a few of the key points Malc listed).

    EXP - Mitch appears in the middle when he starts mumbling, right before he says "I don't believe it", which then pans to the left.

    You Got Me Floating has the "psychedelic" intro.

    I will listen closer tonight. I wonder if this mix variation is a CD thing? I have NEVER owned this title on CD.
     
  13. Mr 5D

    Mr 5D New Member

    Location:
    Sydney
    Finally someone else has noticed!

    I was in Germany in '89 and bought both the US reprise version and the West German Polydor version on CD. Having gotten used to the sound of the US version I was surprised when i played the west German version as it was a completely different mix. I've always found it strange that i've never seen anything mentioned anywhere about the two mixes until now.
     
  14. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brotherâ„¢ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Years ago when I purchased the Polydor two-fer (vinyl) of "AYE" & "ABAL" I noticed the difference between the "ABAL." This was not documented any where. In the 80's a friend of mine use to go to the U.K. a lot on business. I asked him to bring back a CD of "ABAL." Sure enough, when I got the CD home, it played the same way as my Polydor import vinyl did. My W.Germany CD number is same one as Marc has pointed out. Of course with all of the CD up-grades with the Hendrix catalog, I doubt that there is any difference between the two (U.K. & U.S.) now.
     
  15. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Sorry Bob - I should have said West German not UK!

    In the early days of CD nearly all the CDs we got in England were pressed in West Germany (the earliest ones were pressed in Japan). These weren't regarded as imports as they were made in the EU (as we call it now) and therefore I often think of them as domestic editions!

    :)
     
  16. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Well, hasn't this become an interesting thread....:D

    It's obvious that, just as there are variances in the CD issue of AXIS, so there are vinyl variances as well. And beyond two different mixes being employed--wherever they are found, and what we have to pin down is what is what--I know for a fact that AYE has been issued on CD and vinyl with channels reversed, somewhere over the years. I remember hearing one such pressing and thought something was off, so pulled an older vinyl copy and sure enough...channel reversal. Yikes! This is nothing knew, as all collectors are all too aware. But it makes sorting things out all the tougher.

    :ed:
     
  17. Very interesting thread. I will look into my collection to see if I hear a difference. Besides all of the above mentioned versions I also own a Japanese Polydor, catalog P20P 22002.
     
  18. OK, so I hear the differences on the intro to YOU GOT ME FLOATING, and also the tremendous difference in CASTLES MADE OF SAND. The other little differences I notice:


    My P20P has the cover painting inverted 90 degrees so that the whole picture folds out just like it did on the black vinyl album.

    Also, the disc itself on the P20P is all written in Japanese, on my P33P it is written in English.

    On the back cover of the P20P, as part of the original liner lotes, it indicates that the disc was "Manufactured By Polydor K.K., Japan KA 8609 4,500 YEN.

    On the back cover of the P33P it has the same note except it does not say 8609, and the price is "2,700 YEN."

    Also, on the back cover of the P20P, it says in large letters:

    "THIS IS THE SECOND ALBUM OF THE JIMI HENDRIX EXPERIENCE. JIMI HENDRIX WRITES HIS OWN MUSIC AND ALMOST SINGS IT. HE ALSO PLAYS GUITAR."
     
  19. BIG ED

    BIG ED Forum Resident

    My HEAD HURT'S!!!
    I can't tell the 'players' w/o a scorecard!
    Can someone rundown the CD's for me (which mix).
    W.G. (U.K.)
    Japan (U.K.)
    Japan: mini LP packaging.
    U.K.
    Reprise (U.S.)
    MCA
    EH (U.S.)
    Box Set's?
    Please correct me, as well as fill in the blanks!
    I would think someone would also appreciate the definitive mix rundown on vinyl.
    Thanks!
    By the way, do we have names for the different mixes besides original U.K. & U.S.?
     
  20. BIG ED

    BIG ED Forum Resident

    A LOT of people would say THAT about JH.
    My brother, for one!
     
  21. Leppo

    Leppo Forum Librarian

    Location:
    Off Broadway
    Quick question - are you guys referring to the same West Germany CD pressing? :confused:
     
  22. bob g.

    bob g. Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Leppo. Short answer, no (in the portion that you quote I don't mention West German anyway, only Polydor is common, but in the longer post when I say W-G then yes). I've edited my post to be a bit more clear.
    I am referencing a UK pressed Polydor Axis cd packaged similarly to other European Polydors from the eighties but does not sound to me to be the mix that Malc describes for his West German. It sounds more like the EH mix. And I removed my reference to "EH/Reprise" mix since Ed did post that his Reprise cd sounds like Malc's W-G Polydor.

    Again, the booklet for mine is old style Euro Polydor but printed in UK.
    And by "older UK" I didn't mean older than the West German. I mean older than the EH or Douglas re-issues.
     
  23. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Well - I plunked down my two US vinyl Reprise copies of Axis and printed out Malc's notes and took a listen.

    Reprise: Red and Tan Steamboat label
    Side 1: 30725 RS6281 1-E
    Side 2: 30726 RS6281 1F

    Reprise: Tan Steamboat label
    Side 1: 30725 RS6281A 1-B
    Side 2: 30726 RS6281 -1J

    (I double checked those - dash numbers are as scribed, side 1 of the tan label has an "A" after RS6281 that is not present on any of the other sides).

    Both copies align straight through with Malc's description of the EH CD's.

    Now my question is: can someone check an early UK vinyl copy and see if the mix is the same? I'm just wondering if there was a "silent" CD remix (or issuance of an incorrect mix), or did the US and UK always have different mixes?
     
  24. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brotherâ„¢ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    My feelings on this is, the U.K. had one mix the U.S. had another. I knew about these differences since the 70's when I bought the two-fer vinyl set. I don't see this as a big issue, since the U.S. mix is now the world wide mix. JMO!
     
  25. Paul Curtis

    Paul Curtis Active Member

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    So, has anybody worked out which version of Axis (UK or US) the 1993 MCA remasters correspond to?

    (BTW, I recently made the mistake of purchasing the 1997 MCA Axis, and I have to agree with therockman--that sucker is just painful to listen to, particularly through headphones. Even the cruddy old no-noised Reprise pressing would be better than this nasty piece o' crap. What were they thinking?)

    --Paul Curtis
     
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