Bad sounding inner grooves that aren't distorted. Advice?

My thoughts at this point are either the VPI has to go, or the cadenza. I don't think they're a good match up for the reasons stated. The Dynavector I had before this even sounded better.

I'll upload another needle drop with no filter to see what happens. I really do appreciate the help.

 

This is what I got. All I did was record a 1khz test tone to see where my azimuth is at (inverting the phase of one, summing to mono) and it's pretty much where I set it before. I can null the 1khz tone to where there's only a tiny spike on the spectrum, and you have to turn it up really loud to even hear the little bit that's left. Seems to be correct. But, you can see a spike at 9hz, just as Antares said. This is with all subsonic filters off. Is there anything I can do?

 

I don't believe that is a good way to set azimuth, although I see it recommended a lot.


Quote from Micheal Fremer's 21st Century Vinyl set-up pdf:

Do not try to set azimuth by putting one channel out-of phase, summing the two channels and playing a so-called “azimuth setting test tone” found on some test records, and then adjusting for minimum sound. Each coil in your cartridge, and each channel of your phono preamp (especially if it’s tubed) , will have slightly different sensitivity, as will your speakers. If you try to set “azimuth” that way, all you’ll be doing is using your cartridge as a balance control to equalize the output of your system. The goal is to minimize and equalize crosstalk, not balance the output of your stereo’s electronics!

 

I've read so many competing theories on azimuth. Just another reason Im considering getting rid of this VPI. I'm tired of messing around. I've done it using this method, and by ear. I'm happy with neither, this method however seems to produce better results than I was getting before.

I think after spending $5000 on a turntable and cartridge, I should get a certain amount of Fidelity out of it without having to screw around too much. So far, I have been messing around with this since I got the cartridge in March and I am absolutely not satisfied. Now I am finding out that it might be a cartridge mismatch with the arm or something similar, which is why VPI said it sounds great on a classic. It is a higher mass tonearm. And I have tried every amount of VTA, VTF, and now azimuth and my results are less than spectacular. I'm asking the guys on here who are more knowledgeable than I am on the finer details of set up. Though at this point I'd rather have a set it and forget it cartridge and turntable. I should have had half of my records digitized by now and I don't because of mediocre results.

 

Taking a step back, if I haven't missed something here...
What is your cartridge numanoid, did you mention Cadenza Bronze?
Does it have a line-contact type stylus? As I believe the Cadenza line is known for SRA sensitivity.
Did you USB scope the SRA on set-up to 92 degrees? (not to be confused with VTA adjustment).
As slight movement in VTA if SRA was never accomplished,
will offer little relief at best because you are still outside the sweet spot.
IGD effect may be emphasized by SRA being off, a freak occurrence, but not inconceivable.
Deweighting the cart (although counter intuitive) AND increasing the likelihood of damaging mistracking
will decrease overhang and will increase SRA, and may bring you closer to the target point (but far from recommended).

 

So to answer my own query partially: Ortofon Replicant 100, referred to as a conical, yet looks almost exactly like a Fritz Gyger style and used on their best efforts.
Measures (MR 100uM/mr 5uM) and apparently tracks much like a fine-line. So likely hyper SRA sensitive and apt to distort on inner grooves if not spot on.

Also would care to know which protractor set-up you used???

 

Sell whatever tonearm you have on your VPI now and get a Trans-Fi Terminator

 

Personally, I would be far less inclined to blame the deck, the arm, or the cart,
than I would to cast a jaundice eye toward the set-up precision exacted on those pieces.

TT set-up is tricky.

No offense meant numinoid!

It's just that in my experience, more times than not, that is often the weak link.

 

I hope you're right. That's why I'm here. But you can probably understand my frustration after six months of screwing around.

 

Is there a good set up person in your area? Well worth a few hundred bucks, tops, to make sure it is set up right, and no shame in having someone who does it constantly and professionally do it for you. I still have professionals help me, and once you watch them, and they show you the tricks on a given arm/cartridge, you can pretty much do it yourself. Perhaps VPI could recommend someone if you are at a loss on that front.

 

Have you ever thought about trading in the VPI for a Crosley? (couldn't resist the sarcasm) I do agree you should have more than satisfactory fidelity before any fine tuning. I can only guess what the major cause may be, without having a look in person. Fundamental arm resonance of 9hz is within range to not affect the tracking of the cartridge.

 

I would say this replicant stylus is a big part of the problem with this setup. They call it the replicant because it's about the closest shape to the cutting stylus you can get. I've only heard stuff on the internet but what I've read is it is really hard to align because it is so close to the shape of the cutting stylus. The diamond may not be perfectly aligned to the generator so electrical null or crosstalk may not give the best results. That and all records are not cut with perfect azimuth in the grooves.

Short of getting a more forgiving stylus shape I would go back to square one and align the cartridge body square and plumb in all planes to the record. In final assembly the cartridge was probably adjusted for maximum performance in this alignment.

I also read that VPI used to recommend tracking at .2g above the maximum tracking force recommended for the cartridge.

 

I don't blame you numanoid, I would have been tired of messing around after one week, let alone six months. If what you want is a simpler, set it and forget it turntable I would just go ahead ahead and do it. The only downside is that you will lose money on your current set up, but at least lesson learned. There's a lot to be said for a simple and enjoyable system that you can just relax and listen to.

It sounds like you've adjusted everything multiple times without good results and I seriously doubt that anybody here will come up with a "magic bullet" to make it go from bad to great, especially without being there in person. VPIs can be "fiddly" to set up with their unipivot tonearms and a Cadenza with a replicant stylus can and will be very fiddly to set up. Without getting good results, I personally would have gone mad five months ago.

 

^ That's my feeling too, you've tried long and hard enough. Azimuth changes as you play on this thing and resonance is too strong. The problems are with the dynamics of the setup and no amount of static alignment tweaking will solve that or yield the major jump in performance needed.

 

So taking what you said into account, I realigned it with another method that I've read about where you basically get the crosstalk the same between channels. I played with it and dialed it in for about an hour and came to a spot where this happened. That puts the azimuth in a different spot on my turntable, so there may be something to this. However, the sound didn't change dramatically.

I've only used the VPI jig.

Sadly, none that I know of otherwise I would have called them already.

I think the replicant is the problem here. That's when these problems started. I had the stock Dynavector on before this, and it sounded okay, nothing spectacular, but that may have been because I had the high output version. When I found a deal on the bronze, I jumped at it. But like you pointed out, it seems like if you got it perfectly aligned, it would only be to one record, or maybe a different records from the same lathe. Some things sound fine, but most don't and I do believe this might be the problem.

Starting this thread as a last ditch effort was probably the best thing I could do. I think the bronze is not a good match for one of the more "entry level" VPI's . Perhaps it sound better with one that has a long longer arm, more mass, or can be dampened. Maybe that's the reason why they really push for the Dynavector to be installed on these, they just work that well together. I should have spent the extra money I had on a classic rather than a cartridge. Oh well, live and learn.

So where can I sell the bronze and maybe get a Lyra Delos? I hear good things...

 

FWIW I have listened to the files. There are some severe mistracking going on there. The question is, is the stylus this sensitive regarding alignments or is something wrong with it. If the stylus is fine, normally I would say something is way off, but I have not had this type of needle cut. One can hear that the needle nearly totally looses contact with the grooves, now and then. Personally I would have the stylus checked regarding rake angle and azimuth. If it´s normally anywhere this sound I would not use this cartridge.

 

I take exception with the idea that all that could be done with set-up has been done (right).

I too understand your pain numanoid and feel for you, but our audio club has a number of members with VPI TT (perhaps a dozen or so), quite a few that I have set-up or helped set-up. Again, I don't think the deck or your choice of cartridge is the issue here at all. Yes the Replicant 100 is a bit more tricky on set-up with SRA especially, but worth the effort in the music it will plow out of those grooves. Buy the way, get SRA right, and azimuth will dial in without the fuss in my experience. I live in the Detroit Metro area, too bad we aren't a bit closer, have an associate in Port Huron who is more than capable and owns a VPI as well, but that isn't any closer to you. Funny enough, I am actually flying out to Orlando soon to set up a Classic 3 with Shelter 5000 cart. for a dear friend of mine. Can't say I won't enjoy the weather while I'm there. But his dealer eye & earballed it (no USB scope) and I think it remains to be seen whether it is spot on, as the bass etc has not come in yet...

 

Posted before seeing your most recent post numanoid. I would still contend, fix SRA, and azimuth will not be a fuss. Leave SRA misaligned, and azimuth will continue to misread, And you will continue to have mistracking issues. On that subject please BEWARE!, mistracking due to misalignment and/or too light a tracking force, WILL damage record grooves. I know your frustrated beyond belief and just want to sit down and enjoy your music but, a less fussy cartridge/stylus isn't really a fix for an non precise alignment regiment. You need to get to someone who can set you up right, and pay close attention, you will learn a wealth of priceless knowledge.

 

The files I uploaded were also from records that I've always had trouble with. I had hoped once I got into a more expensive system that these problems would go away. When they didn't, that's what prompted me to ask if it just my be the cuts of these records themselves. Now I'm finding that just maybe every cartridge and turntable I've had has just been off.

So now I'm onto the SRA. Is there any way to fine tune this without a USB microscope? I've tried nearly all positions between tail up and down and using my 10x magnifying glass I've gitten it to where the back edge of the stylus looks perpendicular to the lp. This is what Ortofon suggests. It has sounded the same with all of my various VTA and VTF alignments.

By the way, I want to thank everyone for their input!

 

My best attempts have been to set up a camera on tripod, lense level with the platter, and photograph the cart from the side several times during play and stationary with the needle lowered. I can then take the images into photoshop, mark and measure the angles. That’s just using a macro lense, and obviously this metric is in constant fluctuation while playing. That's why I sort of average several images and throw out any on a warp or surface irregularity.

 

Ortofon is one of the best at keeping the tolerance of stylus position to headshell surface very consistent. I forget where I saw the analogy of cartridge/stylus alignment to that of a ballpark and trying to hit a 6mm square (with stylus) while controlling the end of a 9" arm (in this analogy) from some three hundred feet away. The spot we are trying to hit, while having all 3D angles precise is very, very small. And I don't believe many analog folks (no matter how long they have been into it) take it seriously enough. Every manufacturing dimensional tolerance from the stylus contact point to the pivot point of the arm has to be compensated for by alignment. Unfortunately, I know of no ballpark way to get close unless you can actually see the contact point of the stylus.

Records will differ, in that they are cut slightly different from one another. It is my experience that when you get "close enough" with SRA (from a USB scope alignment) and azimuth (by electronic means, not eyeballed parallel) you should be content with the sound regardless of cartridge, record, or tonearm, etc.

 

Good method! One just needs to make absolutely sure you are square to the cartridge body (just like when using a USB scope).

 

Something else worth noting that I forgot to mention before. Anytime I try to put the VTA lower, there's a point where the alignment jig will no longer work because the azimuth ring rests down upon it, making it impossible to get the jig flat on the platter, yet alone get the cartridge to rest on it. So if the VTA changes the overhang, which I'm sure it does, there's a point where I can't realign overhang if I drop the tail down too low.

 

So in other words, when you are in this condition, the arm tube is pivot point down from level, or parallel to the record surface???

Do all of this carefully! You can prove VTA changes overhang by dropping your stylus on a null point of the gauge.
When your spot on it, raise the arm with the arm lift, then lower or raise the VTA significantly and then redrop the stylus.
If you raised the VTA the stylus will fall behind the null point.
If you lowered the VTA the stylus will fall ahead of the null point.

 

This doesn't happen if the arm tube is parallel, but if I start lowering the back too far, I can't realign overhang. So I've only ever went slightly below parallel for this reason. This doesn't happen if I try to raise the back of the arm tube up. And perhaps there's no reason to go that low anyway. But the fact of the matter is that if there is a need to go lower, I can't adjust overhang. Not with the VPI jig, anyway.