Beatles 1st U.S. performances in the wrong key???

Just listened to the two shows - sounds like they're slightly below concert pitch for whatever reason on the black suits show (in the cracks, as they say). But "If I Needed Someone" is the only song where they're actually playing in a lower key - thus the difference in the capo placement.

 

I didn't realize this. I only compared the 2 versions of "If I Needed Someone" and not any of the other songs. I guess George wasn't feeling vocally strong that night and decided to do that song in a lower key.

 

Yes, I agree that's probably the case (as the recording pretty much bears out..lol)

 

Maybe George was usually the main instigator for the few times they've played at a lower pitch? It was his song they played lower at Budokan and he was the one with the cold during Sullivan.

 

Well, those two events were a long ways off from each other, and even with a cold, I don't think there was too much on the two Sullivan shows in question that George couldn't easily handle (no leads, and only a co-lead with Paul on the last verse of "All My Loving.")

 

As long as we're on the topic of Budokan, anyone who has the capability try this little experiment. Try pitch shifting the "black suits" show up 28 cents (just over a quarter of a semi-tone) and see if this doesn't change your impression of the performance. All of a sudden the sluggishness is gone; they sound tighter, more engaged (and not surprisingly, in concert pitch key...).

Bet my bottom dollar this is yet another instance of a video transfer problem rather than a Beatle tuning/performance problem...

 

I would like to make an argument that it is the Beatles tuning that is causing the discrepancy on the 2/9/64 show. In watching the full original shows from the 2010 DVD set, I looked for several things that would point fingers at the video tape being transferred at the wrong speed. While watching the broadcast and comparing it to the other broadcasts on the DVD and other episodes:
A) Is the opening theme music in the correct key? Yes
B) Are the commercials (when music is used) in the correct key? Yes
C) Are the performances from 'Oliver' in the correct key (basing it off the Broadway Cast album)? Yes
D) Are the performances from the 2/23/64 broadcast (pre-taped during dress rehearsal for the 2/9 broadcast) at a slightly lower pitch like the 2/9 performances? Yes

Based on this evidence, I would say that the Beatles were simply tuned a bit flat. I have known many musicians who have tuned their guitars to themselves and been flat or sharp, or gotten a bad pitch source and tuned to that as well. It is what it is, and it's history.

 

Great first post!
Welcome to the forum!

 

Excellent contribution, thanks for that. I just watched parts of the episode in question again myself, and I agree with each of your points - everything else on the program is on pitch. That still doesn't explain the discrepancy with the Maysles clip in the "1st U.S. Visit" extras of the family watching the original broadcast, where the speed of "I Saw Her Standing There" is very noticeably faster and on pitch in the original key of E. And going back to the DVD, something about the Beatles performance still sounds a little unnatural tonally to me, especially vocally.

So I really don't know at this point. I know I prefer to hear it with the pitch/speed adjusted somewhat up towards the original key, for whatever it's worth...

 

I know the clip and I am not sure what the answer is. I've heard variations in pitch though between kinescope copies (16mm camera pointed at a tv monitor to preserve the live program) and video masters when comparing the same program in the past. Anyone know more about this?

 

Very simple. US NTSC was 29.97 fps, kinescope transfers were 24 fps - and if played back in Britain at 25 fps, appears higher in pitch.

 

For those of us "technically challenged" as far as the video aspects go, can you say what the practical effect of all this is? Is the Beatles' performance on the DVD version actually shown at the correct speed? And where does the bit about "played back in Britain at 25 fps" come into play?

 

Absolutely true. And i play profesionally and am far from being a dimwitt.

 

A 24 fps film played back at 25 fps has a pitch increase of 4% (nearly half-a-step, or one semitone, up), conversely if a British-made film originating at 25 fps is played back at US 24 fps, it sounds "draggy." Now, if the DVD version of The Beatles' Sullivan performances of Feb. 9 and (as aired on) 23 consists of the original B&W videotapes, then the lower pitch (approx. A=422) in which they played was, in that context, correct.

 

I don't play professionally, but I have to again disagree - I may not notice if my guitar is tuned slightly off concert pitch, but if close to a whole semi-tone off (a not musically insignificant amount), I would definitely hear it. After all, most of us (I think) certainly here it in the Beatles' performance here.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, if the DVD of this and the Washington D.C. Coliseum show two days later are both accurate transfers per the originally recorded speed, then we have a situation where the Beatles were tuned below concert pitch for about the only times in their whole concert career (at least up until possibly one of the Budokan shows). And then five days later for their 2nd Sullivan appearance in Miami Beach, they'd already corrected themselves and are back on concert pitch.

Not impossible certainly, but somewhat bizzarre nevertheless. Anyways, in the absence of any further information, I won't press the matter further.

 

If George had a cold during the Sullivan shows, obviously his voice would have been at a lower pitch when he says "my dog has fleas" at tuning time.

 

Whenever I tour overseas, I de-tune my guitar for the flights but I doubt thats why it was done. I think they were either playing it safe (jetlag can screw up vocals big time) or they were most likely compensating for Harrison's sore throat. One thing is for sure, they most certainly did drop the tuning a half step as the vocals are all natural. Besides, the Miami show is also from video tape and they are in 440.

 

The clip of the family watching the Ed Sullivan broadcast on the "First U.S. Visit" DVD is interlaced at a rate of 5 film frames to every 6 video frames, therefore 25 frames of film to 30 frames of video. Assuming it was shot at 24 frames per second, this would account for the change in pitch.

 

Which actually backs up my point. If the film was shot at 24 frames per second, then the material was sped up 4% for a 25 frame per second edit, then converted back to NTSC with a pulldown that maintained pitch, the converted program would maintain the sped up pitch.

I'd bet money that the bonus features on the U.S. Visit DVD originated in PAL and were converted back to NTSC. There is interlacing on cuts between film and video tape sources, which should not happen unless the frame rate of the source has been messed with (or unless you have someone detail oriented enough to make edits on fields, which might make sense for a problematic cut or two, but not for a long stretch of edited video).

 

I don't know where the other parts went, but this is from that recently found video master. The pitch is flat as well.

 

I do play professionally, and one of the bands I play with actually always tune down a half-step. When I'm playing, it doesn't feel any different. Maybe on my acoustic I can tell more, because of the the heavier gauge strings, but not on any of my electrics. Pulling my guitar out of the case, I think I'd need a tuner to determine if my guitar is currently tuned to E or Eb, anything else would just be a guess really.

Your earlier comment about The Beatles ES performance sounding tighter at 'correct' pitch may well be true, but that's only because ANYTHING sounds tighter when sped up. It doesn't mean it was actually played that tight in the first place though. I've seen bootlegs that proudly state that 'Everything has been speed-corrected. If they weren't tuned to exact concert pitch, they are now, as we've brought everything back to the correct A=440'. But of course, that means the recording is then at the wrong speed. It's very tricky 'correcting' the speed of old recordings.

But I think we can safely say that, whether by accident or design, The Beatles were tuned slightly flat here.

 

They could be down deliberately to avoid "hamburg throat".

 

I regularly perform on guitar and could also easily be a half step flat without knowing it.

There is also no way to know that these are the only times this happened when the Beatles plays live as most such shows were not professionally recorded and there is no way to know they are being played back at the exact speed they were recorded unless playback speed is fine tuned based on A 440 assumption. We can't know the speed of the portable cassette recorder used at Candlestick and even professional recordings like Decca tapes have been presented at various speeds and tunings.