Beatles CD singles & EP boxes - same mastering?

Fun indeed. I certainly learned a lot. Thanks Steve.

BTW, did you listen to the samples?

 

Steve,

Why didn't they use a mono playback machine? Let me re-phrase that. Would you get better results playing back mono tapes on a mono machine rather than splitting it off to two channels and using one of them? I've never dealt with full track tapes.

 

We certainly do. Particularly the EP box set. And I know what you mean, I have six of the EP's from the vinyl box, and they sound much better even than the EP box set. It could be much better indeed.

 

Steve,

on most of the CDs you mastered (DCC and before), mono tracks are not 100% mono. You can't hear a difference between the channels, but they are digitally different. In other words, an OOPS cancellation will not result in silence. Some examples are the DCC Pet Sounds and (much more so) the Buddy Holly From The Original Master Tapes.

Does that mean that you played a mono tape in stereo in all these cases?

 

Thanks Steve. I've always wondered if there was a difference especially in the low end.

 

Let me address Steve's point about folding down the OOP mono channels vs. leaving them in stereo. If I understood his point correctly, he said that if the OOP channels are not folded to mono, then if the recording is played back in stereo it will still sound OK. I have to say, though, that this is not my experience. Played back in stereo it still sounds "phasey". I guess you could say that in that case, it's your brain that's doing the fold-down, after the OOP left and right channels hit your ears! (I should say I listen through very resolving speakers in the near field.) I heard a clear improvement when I picked one channel and duplicated it, thus eliminating the problem of OOP channels.

In any case, this is easy enough for anyone to test, either by listening to as's posts (thanks, as!) or by duplicating the experiment at home. As for me, my mind is made up. For each of the OOP singles, I'm going to pick one channel (the better one, if there is a better one) and duplicate it into the other channel. That's the way it sounds best to me.

P.S. When you listen to as's posts, or try this yourself, pay particular attention to the cymbals. Where are they in the soundstage, and how clear do they sound?

 

Again, pay particular attention to the cymbals.

 

I did pay attention to the cymbals, and I notice what you mean (I also noticed that on the rhythm guitar), but I notice that the lead guitar sounds more artificial on the right track only sample. Also, before I trimmed the sample, I noticed that the opening riff sounded better on the original track then the right track only sample. That all could be a response to the not quite mono sound of the original track giving one's ears a more familiar type of experience (just my guess). But there is no disputing that the fold down makes everything worse.

 

I listened to your .wav's again (through headphones), paying attention to the lead guitar that you mentioned. It does indeed sound "fatter" on the slightly OOP stereo track. I suppose this effect may be somewhat akin to double tracking. For me, though, now that I've noticed the difference, the slightly OOP stereo just sounds incorrect, notwithstanding the "fattening" effect that may occasionally be pleasing. I like my mono dead center, thanks, not glued to the speakers, or coming from everywhere and nowhere. Besides, the clincher for me is not so much the cymbals, but the vocals. They're just clearer on the corrected version.

 

That's amazing, I listened to them again with headphones using my work computer this time, and there IS a more clear sound to the vocals that I didn't hear at home. I should post the left channel also, and maybe we can see which one sounds better.

 

The difference would be more obvious with headphones. I was going to be diplomatic and say that it's a matter of taste, but really it's not. Mono played back in "slightly OOP stereo" is slightly incorrect!

How big a deal it is is another matter, which probably depends on how revealing one's system is and how it's set up. As I said, I listen in the near field, and no doubt the difference is more noticeable there than it would be in the free field. Personally, I find the "slightly OOP stereo" effect distracting. So to me, correcting it is a no-brainer, especially since it's not that hard to do.

I agree that the right way to proceed would be to compare L and R channels for each OOP single, and choose the better one. Finding time to do it is another matter! I may not be able to do much on this for the next week or so. If you are able and willing to post the L channel for "I Feel Fine", by all means do so. At home, I would just disconnect one speaker at a time and listen to each channel separately.

 

Are the 3" mini CDs of the singles the same mastering as the Singles Box Set? I have the complete set of those and not the box set, but I am less inclined to use them because they are in longboxes still sealed.

 

If you post your results that would be great.

 

I certainly will. Check back in a week or two...

 

After the fold down received a unanimous pan, I decided to take it down and put up the left channel. I don't really hear much of a difference between the left channel and the right. Let's see what you think. BTW, I only have some much file space, so I had to limit the sample to 15 seconds.

I Feel Fine OOP test

 

After listening it for a bit. I hear some incongruencies in the right channel track that I don't hear on the left channel. For example when Lennon sings : "Baby's good to me, you know she's happy as can be", on "me" and "be" I hear a small amount of distortion on those syllables on the right channel track. Also the cymbals sound a bit cleaner on the left channel. Does anyone else have any thoughts?

 

Well, yeah I have some thoughts...

Listen, you guys are listening to the differences/distortions in the channels of a mono record. That record was mastered and pressed as a mono record. Whatever EMI did or didn't do to that tape is not going to be heard by listening to one channel of a mono record. Remember when I said "They put the Y connector in for you"? The damage (if there was any) has already been done.

The only way you could save a mono tape that was played back on a stereo head would be if the record was released as a stereo pressing! Again, the only place I recall ever hearing that rare event happen in Beatleland was the blue cover Rarites lp.

 

But the thing is the track is NOT monophonic. We are talking about the CD single NOT the mono 45 made with a mono cutter. If you perform an out of phase test on the CD single, you'll see that the the two channels on the track ARE different. It is not close, there is a distinct difference between the two (though not necessarily one that is hugely obvious when listening to each channel). That's why when you fold it down it sounds worse than it did before. If I understand it correctly from what Steve says above, what happened was that the engineer played the mono tape on a stereo machine and did not line up the azimuth properly. Then they just went straight to the mastering process. No mono button on the console was pressed and no digital process was made to make the track mono. So when you listen to the track today, it is very close to mono, but it is NOT mono.

I do agree, that if the engineer had pressed the mono button on the console making the track really monophonic, then that would in fact be worse than what they put out. That would sound like the folded down version of the track, which is not a pretty sight sonically speaking.

Are we still on for that Anchor Steam?

 

Well, the point that as and I have been making is that the singles CD box was released "as a stereo pressing", so to speak. The recordings were originally mono, but the CD has separate L and R channels that are out of phase with one another. EMI did not put in the Y connector for us. (Keep in mind that we are speaking of CDs, not records.)

But you don't need to take our word for it. If you have a sound editor on your PC, just rip the tracks and do the OOP test for yourself. If you want to go further, correct the error and listen for yourself.

P.S. I see as has already answered this one, and better than I did. What he said.

 

OK, I stand corrected... I'm an old guy and when RZangpo2 said "OOP single" I imediately think 45 RPM! I never took the time to listen that carefully to the cd singles.

Maybe EMI did put some care into those cd singles if they left the playback and mastering in stereo. Perhaps they were aware of the cancellation problem? In that case, you guys are absolutely correct, there will be a difference!

Jeeze, I wouldn't expect EMI to go to all the extra work of finding a mono playback head for an obscure band like the fabs, but why they didn't do what Steve had suggested (use only one side) to improve things is a mystery... Maybe they were afraid of the Great Apple Empire!

And as far a the Anchor Steam goes, make it two!

 

as, I haven't had the time to listen, but I believe what you say about the differences you hear between the channels. When I have time I'll listen and confirm. I wonder if the left channel will turn out to be the better one for all the OOP singles?