Bifrost change in sound, usb

I have had it for about a month. I got Jriver and set it up correctly for SQ.
At first I had Jrivers bit perfect dithering turned off, then a forum member told me to turn it on.
After I turned it on I noticed a pretty extreme difference in soundstage, the separation of each individual sounds and instruments. The separation of each sound was the biggest difference.
So for the last few weeks this sound I describe, with Jriver bit perfect dithering on, has been consistent.
Just today listening through Jriver and usb, that separation is lost. Now it sounds like it did before turning bit perfect dithering on. Sounds smothered like a typical digital media device now.
I checked all the settings and nothing has changed.
The way it sounds now, I really dont care to sit down and listen anymore.

 

Maybe you are having a bad day.

Seriously, shut down your system for a few days, give your ears a rest, and go back to listening to it again. Frankly, you shouldn't be hearing any kind of drastic difference with "bit perfect dithering" turned on or off, so maybe the difference is in your head. Not that you are imagining it, but maybe your mood, state of relaxation, influence of caffeine, alcohol, medication, etc. could affect your enjoyment of music and your interpretation of what you hear.

 

Try powering the DAC down for about 30 seconds and then turning the power back on. My Modi Multibit will sometimes get itself into a state of bad sound. As if something is out of sync in the DAC processing. Powering it off and turning it back on fixes it. The Modi Multibit and Bifrost Multibit are similar design. Maybe the Bifrost also has that occasional problem. I don't have that problem with my Gungnir Multibit.

 

Have you tried turned dithering off and then back on again?

 

I suggest you use the standard TPDF dither available in JRiver, instead of their older "bit-perfect" dither. You can read about the different types of dither in this thread on the JRiver Forum.

 

Yes, this went through my mind a lot during my listening. But in this case the difference was too big.

 

I think this may be the case Ham. It does indeed seem like the DAC is not recognizing the bit perfect dithering. I have had it on for 2-3 weeks now.
So it does correlate with your modi problem. I will power it down for a while and see what happens.

 

Yes I tried that a few times, slight difference in sound between on and off. Not back to the great separation I once had.

 

Will look into that post on dithering, thanks.

 

The sound I had before with bit perfect dithering turned on, let me hear the digital artifacty sound from my cd's that where made in the 80's. It stripped all color and muddiness that far back. Now those same 80's cd's sound more rounded or organic, way less detail as well.

 

Just listened again, turned dac off for a little while. The sound seemed to be more like I had heard before, maybe just a little more round or organic sounding in vocals and individual sounds.
I tried the TPDF dithering, here is what I noticed compared to bit perfect.
TPDF has more detail, the soundstage seems more coherent or connected from L to R. I hear more detail and actual changes with big transients, changes mid transients which goes with more detail I guess.
Jrivers bit perfect dithering has more energy or dynamics and individual sounds each have more energy and sound more forward in soundstage. L to R in stage is less coherent and stands out more.
They are both good but so far I like the more exciting sound of bit perfect dithering better, but definitely more detail in TPDF.
What do you guys think? You hear it similar to what I explained.

 

Are you turning it off after use? Just leave it on all of the time.

 

What's confusing to me is that the dithering shouldn't make a difference if the audio is playing bit-perfect from JRiver to the DAC. Dithering only happens when there is extra processing of the audio going on. The goal for bit-perfect playback is that there is no additional processing going on that changes any of the bits. If you're hearing a difference with different dithering then something in your audio setup or JRiver settings is fiddling with the bits.

JRiver has a button on the toolbar that glows blue when JRiver is doing bit-perfect playback (there are some exceptions, but we'll ignore those for now). If you hover the mouse over that button it will display a pop-up window that shows the Audio Path. The Audio Path shows the input format, any processing, and the output format. Here's a screenshot showing the blue button glowing and the AudioPath pop-up window. Does that button turn blue for you during playback? What does the Audio Path window say?

 

That got me interested. I never tried dithering with J River but if the difference is as large as the OP claims it to be than it's worth checking out.

 

Why do you need a blue light to tell you? Surely your ears should tell you when it's bit perfect.

 

Well one of the reasons is that bit perfect isn't only used for audio only. It is quite important when streaming multi channel audio tracks for movies and you want to do the decoding with an external decoder/receiver.

Another reason is that hearing is subjective while a lighted blue indicator is absolute.

 

JRiver will light the blue indicator in some situations where no apparent DSP is used. If you use the volume control in JRiver, for example -- which is excellent -- volume computations are done at 64-bit depth, so the signal needs dithering when reduced to 24 bits or 32 bits for output. This is standard practice in digital audio, to dither when bit depth is reduced just before output. And if you use no other DSP than volume adjustment, the blue light remains on, I believe.

TPDF is the industry standard. It was added to JR after a request from Bob Katz, the well known mastering engineer, who considers the J River "bit-perfect" dithering to be inferior. Of course, any user can choose what he/she pleases, but for the most neutral result, I'd recommend TPDF dither.

 

Another thing to check is to make sure you've got the audio properties for the DAC configured to allow exclusive mode.

The Windows Audio Properties are in the control panel. Two ways to get to that setting:
Control Panel >> Audio
Right-click on the speaker icon in the taskbar (bottom right near the clock display) and select "Playback devices"

Select (click on) the Schiit audio device and then the "Properties" button
Go to the Advanced tab in that properties dialog
Make sure that the checkmarks for "Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" and "Give exclusive mode applications priority" are set.
It doesn't really matter what bit depth and sample rate the default format is set to because that setting gets bypassed when using exclusive mode.
In shared mode playback all the audio gets resampled to whatever format the default format is set at.
Just for good measure, go to the "Enhancements" tab and also make sure all enhancements are disabled. Exclusive mode bypasses this, but good to make sure no enhancements are messing up the sound when using an application that uses shared mode (like a web browser playing YouTube).

Here's a screenshot of the audio device properties dialog:

 

I checked this morning the advanced options and found that JRiver was set on bit perfect dithering, which apparently is the default. I changed it to TPDF dithering and proceeded to check few tracks that I know well: Diana Krall's Like Someone in Love, Zero 7's Out of Town and Quantum Collage's Lucide Dreaming. All this was done using HD 600 headphones with volume leveling and adaptive volume turned on.

My impressions were of a different sensation of depth and staging compared to bit perfect dithering but no change to timbre, pitch or tonality. I think that it's an improvement not just a change, but I'll wait until the novelty (or placebo effect) will fade to decide if there is a real and significant change and if it's worth keeping.

 

That is what has been reported by others. If there was a change in pitch, I'd be scratching my head for sure!

 

Yes I have the control panel in sound set to cd quality, I mostly listen to cd rips. Also all exclusive is given to software in control panel and Jriver. HDD is set to stay awake as well.
I dont have any DSP effects turned on under control panel sound. I dont have the bypass all enhancements checked either. Should I turn that on just for good measure or no?
I looked at the audio path the other day, been wondering if there was something to show me what is actually going on.
I have not payed enough attention to the blue light thing for bit perfect.
I can understand a change within different bit perfect dithering, its different processing to whatever degree so some change in sound can be perceived.

The audio path while listening to cd rips is
input 16bit 44.1kHz 2ch Direct sound
Output 24bit 44.1kHz 2 ch wasapi
Says no changes are being made.

Its that way with both dithering options.

At first I was under the impression that the Schiit MB DAC's should ignore the dithering bc they have their own hardware filtering.
But I guess dithering sent to the DAC is different than the DAC's internal filtering.

I hear a more recessed soundstage with TPDF and the vocals stand out forward more. I can also hear more detail. I noticed more dynamics bc of the more recessed soundstage. On some cd rips vocals had more detail, for sure, no doubt.


Maybe that super raw digital sound that I explained was bc it was still burning in, dont know but I liked it.
Even though it had every negative attribute to digital sound one can think of, the separation of each individual sound was captivating.

 

I think they are both good, each has its own sound, just whatever you prefer. Its not placebo.

 

I switched the volume from system to internal, unchecked maximize volume. I heard an improvement of a cleaner sound. Jriver says that for SQ you want to use internal volume, that is where it is computing it in 64 bit without any other DSP layer for volume.
Thats what I got out of it, let me know if I am wrong somewhere.

 

At first I was turning it off every night, and the perceived difference occurred after I started leaving it on all the time. Noticed change about 2-3 weeks in after leaving it on all the time. I use it through optical from tv, for directv as well. The sound never changed through optical coming from HDMI from directv receiver to tv, then out of tv via optical to DAC.

I had my 4 year war with vinyl playback. Went to digital to get away from all that.
Now I am hearing differences in my DAC, minus whatever dithering it is set on.

I would like to participate in the MC23 thread for improvement.
I know what I hear is real and not placebo from the 2 dither options.
Just dont want to make yet another login user name password, I will do it eventually.

I think Schiit should provide an app that would tell you if something wasnt working properly in their processing. Since they dont have a screen on their DAC's.
We can see what Jriver is doing with audio path but would be nice to know what the DAC is doing as well.

Just checked the audio path gear symbol, it is blue.

 

Well, at least you gave it the college try! I am perplexed as to how dithering can cause such a drastic change in sound, and then somehow revert back to the old sound with no parameters changed, but I don't doubt that you are hearing a difference.