Byrds 360 LP matrix numbers

WB--FASCINATING info on LPI specs on the Scullys. (Where did those lathes go after CBS closed their manufacturing facilities?) I'm also curious about LPI/lead-in/lead-out specs on the 78s too. How did they make the leadout grooves on the 78s, both concentric and eccentric? And what was with those funky records made between c. late 1936 and sometime in 1939 where the first few and last few grooves are spaced more like approx. 40 LPI and the grooves in between are varying (as opposed to variable) pitch?

Why did Columbia stop stamping the matrix numbers?

BTW I WILL be seeking your book out via interlibrary loan. Can't wait to read it! As they say, you da man!

 

I'm not sure I follow you entirely. I understand that different lathes would leave a fingerprint of sorts in the lead in grooves and the lead out grooves. And I do understand that a 32 lpi would have more grooves in the lead out than a 15 lpi. But I'm not sure how you would be able to tell much beyond that.

Edit: I do notice that the lead out looks the same on both side 1 (hand written) and side 2 machine stamped.

 

Thanks for the praise. But in all seriousness . . . that "funky" lathe of which you speak was retired in 1939 - which coincided with CBS's acquisition of the American Record Corporation (no relation, I presume, to the imprint label of Earth, Wind & Fire of the late 1970's/early '80's) and subsequent renaming of the division as the Columbia Recording Corporation - all this, as part of an across-the-board upgrading of their equipment, and move of their main recording and mastering facilities to 799 Seventh Avenue where they remained until 1966 (I think before then, they were housed at 1776 Broadway). Among the last records cut on that "funky" lathe was Kay Kyser and his Orchestra's "Three Little Fishies." The lathe that replaced it (and they had two that I know of, one for cutting 10" 78's as generally used for the pop offerings and another for 12" 78's as mostly used on Masterworks issues) had an apparent formula that the lead-in/lead-out spacing was the number of lpi on the record divided by 17. (And for some reason, what was cited on a lacquer log card differed from what was actually cut on the record. One book I read about V-Discs which printed copies of some Columbia lacquer log documents cited the lathe that cut 10" records as having pitches of 85 and 96 lpi - but they looked more to me like 86 and 98, respectively.) Say a 78 has 85 lpi pitch, then by that formula the lead-in/lead-out would be 5 lpi. A 96 lpi disc would have 5.647 pitch lead-in/lead out, and so on. The higher the lpi, the tighter the lead-in/lead-out spacing. This lathe would be in use right up to the end of the 78 in 1958 (or probably later, if Canadian 78's are of any indication). Until 1952-53, 78's also had a separate lead-out and eccentric groove cut independent of the cutting of the song itself. Their eccentric grooves always had a weird trajectory to them as the record was spinning, I.M.H.O. It didn't become "normalized" until after 1953. I have a 78 copy of Mitch Miller's "March from the River Kwai/Colonel Bogey" (#41066, 1957) whereby the LPI was about 69 pitch, thus the lead-in/lead-out pitch would be 4.06 lpi!

Most 45's from 1951 to 1966 were cut on a Scully lathe where they had "varying" pitch whereby there were either 20 or 30 "variables" per inch. The lpi were as follows (that I know of): 88, 96, 104, 112, 120, 128, 136, 150, 164, 191, 205, 225.5, 246, 266.5, 287 and 307.5. The 205 was a "cusp" as I saw 20 "varying pitches" on one lacquer with that pitch, and 30 "varying pitches" on another. The difference was that the lead-in and lead-out were slower on the 30-varying rather than the 20-varying (I call them "clumps" myself). You will recognize such cuttings if you listen very closely as they're about to start the lead-out and you hear a faint but still slightly audible "chickum"-type sound followed by rumbling and then a gradually noticeable groan at one point in the concentric locked groove. In early 1964, the lead-in and lead-out velocity were slowed down a tiny bit from what it had been to the end of 1963. The Byrds' first singles on Columbia were cut on that lathe. It was retired around August of 1966, when Columbia moved their main recording, editing and mastering facilities to East 52nd Street. Up to 1960 or thereabouts, some mono LP's were also cut on that particular lathe. I've noticed at least two, maybe three, "other lathes" used for cutting of 45's in this period, one in late 1955 to late 1956 and again in the summer of 1958, another in early to mid 1957.

As for the Scullys used in the post-1966 period: I'd say the last one was retired about 1980.

And as to why they retired the equipment used to stamp the matrix numbers: Probably to save a few steps in the manufacturing, I guess . . .

 

Apparently, from what you're saying, the respective lathes used to cut the lacquers for each side on your copy both had a 4.165-lpi lead-out pitch. Hollywood had three lathes with the same identical lead-out groove spacing - two mono, one stereo. In the last 1-2 years of the Hollywood studio's operation (it closed in late 1972), the Scullys were apparently retrofitted to cut both mono and stereo, but I'm guessing. At least two of the lathes, possibly three, in New York had that lead-out pitch - one or two mono, one stereo.

As to how I was able to identify the spacing: On many one-sided records - i.e. promo stuff for advertising clients, test pressings et al. - there would oftentimes be "blank groove" records on the other side where the Scullys that cut such "blank grooves" would often turn such lead-in pitches as I described from start to near the designated "inner groove" diameter. I find these very useful, indeed.

 

And let me clarify about the pre-set pitches on the pre-1966 Scully on which many 45's were cut from February 1951 on. It appears to have been a c.1938 make, and may have been in use at the 799 Seventh Avenue studio as early as 1939, on 12" 78's and cutting 16" 33⅓ transcriptions which were forerunners of tape masters. Upon further examination of other cuttings - both LP and 45 - on that lathe, there were two groups of pitches - coarse (with 20 groupings per inch) and fine (with 30 groupings per inch). The pitches are as follows:
1st group: 88, 96, 104, 112, 120, 128, 136, 150, 164, 177.33, 190.67, 204
2nd group: 132, 144, 156, 168, 180, 192, 204, 225, 246, 266, 286, 306
Some early 1950's 45 cuttings added on average about 1 lpi to each pitch (hence the "307" figure for 306 pitch).
Columbia's Nashville studios also used that kind of lathe for their mono cuttings, until about 1973.

The more stable lead-ins and lead-outs were on lathes where there was a knob to adjust the pitch on the table level, rather than a gear shift in a box. Those types of Scullys may have dated to 1948, but I first noticed the characteristics (i.e. lead-in / lead-out pitches, catch grooves) I described on RCA 45's pressed as far back as March 1951.

For a 1938 vintage Scully: Click here and here. It was that type of lathe that Peter Goldmark was seen using in pictures of his development of Columbia's LP record.
For the kind of Scully used on that "360 label" Byrds LP: Click here and here.

 

As for the kind of Scullys used to cut Byrds LP's in the "360" era, while the knob on the right side of the console as used to set which lpi to cut usually ranged from 70 to 400 lpi, I saw a picture on a website here where the lpi range was printed as 105 to 600 lpi.



This reinforces what I was saying in the previous message about the 1.0 - 1.5x ratio in lpi settings of the older generation Scullys.

 

I can't even remember what this thread was about but W.B., you da man!

 

I absolutely love the fact that there's a place in the world that other people are interested in the lines per inch on a record's surface...as my wife says, "there are more people like you out there?"

 

Reading this thread months ago got me thinking (and measuring grooves). Here's what I know and have observed:

Audio Lathe - http://www.televar.com/grshome/Audiolathe.htm - formerly GRS Recording Service, use a Scully with a variable pitch knob. The owner has told me this Scully was one of the ones owned by Capitol in Hollywood, but I'm not sure W.B.'s research would bear that out, as it has a slow lead-out pitch of 4.17 lpi. (Lead-in and spirals are 32-point-something).

Aardvark Mastering appear to use a Scully with a gearbox, as seen here - http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/westrex.htm . They list the straight groove pitches they have available here - http://www.aardvarkmastering.com/dubs.htm . Interesting that the higher pitches, 178 through 274, are approximately double that of the lower pitches 88 through 136. I'm not one hundred percent certain of pressings cut by them, but I think the lead-in and lead-out pitches are around 8 and 2.5 lpi respectively. Unusual? Aardvark's Scully came from Hilltop Recording Studios in Nashville in the mid-eighties.

The owner of Audio Lathe gave me a tour and was nice enough to let me copy the owner's manual for his Scully, which appears to be circa 1958, a few years ago. It's very inscrutable reading without the actual lathe there to follow along on, but there are some eye-opening bits...

Regarding W.B.'s note about the variable pitch knob, the manual seems to say there were three pitch ranges available: 70 to 400 lpi, 105 to 600 lpi, and 140 to 800 lpi (!). Not only that, these ranges were interchangable on the same lathe by reorienting a mechanical part underneath the knob and replacing the faceplates with the printed numbers, using just an allen key and a screwdriver ... according to the manual anyways.

Although I've not seen it in action, automatic variable pitch on late-fifties era Scullys sounds like fun to watch. An outboard piece of rack-mounted equipment decides the correct pitch and sends it to the lathe; the operator sets the maximum pitch on the dial, and then the signals from the outboard unit make the dial move to the appropriate positions all on its own.

I think I know what's happening with the "groove clumping". The leadscrew moving the cutterhead across the record is driven by a pulley or gear at the nd of the screw. If this drive method is even slightly eccentric in relation to the rest of the screw, the speed will vary through each rotation of the screw, based only on its thread pitch, not the groove pitch or speed of the record being cut. Thus the grooves "clump up" at regular distances.

The reason for the trademark catch groove on Scully cuts, as near as I can tell: coming from lead-out pitch to a stop, the cutter has a certain amount of "backlash" or springback. (My H13 pressing of Strawberry Fields Forever/ Penny Lane has a LOT of it.) The manual notes this is a normal part of wear and tear, and advises the maximum allowable amount and how to adjust it. The use of the catch groove seems to be to get the lock groove out of the way of this backlash, otherwise the lock groove would run over and possibly criss-cross the lead-out at a point before it came to a complete stop.

The correct points for the cutterhead drop point, recording pitch, catch-groove and locked groove for 7, 10 and 12 inch records are controlled by an array of roller switches behind the cutter carriage. There are also options to lift the cutterhead before reaching the catch groove on 10s and 12s, making a "tails-out" ending for the later addition of an eccentric lock groove.

Hopefully some of this helps.

 

One lathe I have long been curious about, is whatever was it that Mercury used on virtually all its mono LP and 45 releases from sometime around 1957/58 until around 1969? Discs made on it have lots of thuds and clunks on them, from the lead in groove going into regular-pitch grooves, and (most distinctly of all) a lead-out spiral that increases in velocity as it nears the locked groove. There's always a good-sized, booming 'clunk' to be heard when your playback stylus hits the locked groove at the end. Strange; the sound quality of the records was otherwise very good indeed; hot levels oftentimes, with unfiltered bass.

 

By my calculations, 32.3125.

Some of it? How about all of it! Many thanks.

I doubt Capitol in Hollywood would've used that particular Scully in use at Audio Lathe, given that lead-out cited. Maybe one of the three (two mono, one stereo) from Columbia's Hollywood studios up to the point of their closure in 1972 (all of which had the "slow" 4.17 lead-out). The H/J lathe at Capitol (as cut that 'H13' lacquer of "Penny Lane" / "Strawberry Fields Forever") had 3.92 lpi lead-out, A/B was 3.83, and pre-1969 F/G Scully was 3.58 (all Capitol lacquers, in all speeds, used slow lead-out exclusively after 1955 in New York and 1956 in Hollywood). The only Scullys with 4.17 lead-out in use at Capitol, were in New York (post-1962 mono, later designated P/T; and stereo, W/X, in use from the intro of stereo in '58).

I know that on Scullys with "slow" 4.17 lead-out, the "fast" lead-out would be 2.14; with 3.92, 2.04; with 3.83, 1.98. (And that's a partial list.) Very few Scullys of this make (as used in RCA studios in New York, Chicago and Toronto) had slow lead-out of 4.6 and fast lead-out of 2.3.

I said something about the Scullys with a gearbox being late 1930's vintage. Interesting about that quote. (I remember reading a newspaper article about Aardvark's owner where he said that the Scully he bought from Hilltop was made in the late '30's.) I saw the quotes of the 178 through 274 pitches, and did a calculation that on the late '30's Scully used by Columbia New York through 1966, a variation of this set of pitches was used albeit multiplied by 0.84375 on one set and 1.265625 on the other:
- (After 88-136): 150.1875, 163.6875, 177.1875, 190.6875, 204.1875, 217.6875, 231.1875
- (After 132-204): 225.28125, 245.53125, 265.78125, 286.03125, 306.28125, 326.53125, 346.78125
(In each set, the last two pitches were never used to my knowledge. This corresponds more or less to my prior calculations.)

I also noticed that on Scullys where the lead-in options were 14.729167 and 7.625, those are the ones with the 14.729167 catch groove. (As in use on two of the Scullys at Bell Sound in New York and early 1970's MGM in Hollywood.) What was the bit about those Scullys (as in use by RCA studios in New York and Nashville, and Mercury/Masterdisk in New York) with 15.583333... lead-in (and sometimes spread grooves)? All these variations are most interesting, I.M.H.O. It's posts like yours I positively live for.

And about your comment on and explanation about "springback" in cutting lead-out to catch groove: Makes some sense. I saw this "springback" on some stereo Radio Recorders-mastered 45 lacquers in the 1958-59 period (such as a stereo single of Sam Cooke's "Only Sixteen," and very early Warner Bros. stereo 45's from their start-up). Some were more severe than others, depending on what you'd described. In any case, I always found the sequence hypnotic.

 

That explains something - I have a handful of 16 2/3 rpm Talking Books cut on a Scully (7.625 in/ 4.17 out), that are straight 326 and 346 lpi. I thought they were cut on a variable pitch machine, but maybe not. They must have been a real headache to cut, though. They skip if you look at them crosseyed.

BTW, all four speeds were available on Scullys, but only two speeds at any one time - changing over to another set involved moving pulleys up and down the motor shaft.

 

I also seemed to notice on late 1930's Scullys with gear boxes, the velocity of lead-ins and -outs were same no matter what speed, thus the -ins and -outs appeared farther spaced on 33-1/3 with certain pitches than on 45 which in turn was farther spaced than on 78's.

Now since I'm straight on lead-in, spread and catch grooves, what's the terminology for the turn(s) of groove (32.3125) after the record ends but before the lead-out starts? I have a more extreme sample below:

 

I'm in the process of going through the manual and transcribing the written sections into a text file so I don't have to flip through 150 typewritten pages to find what I'm looking for. Some of what has stood out to me:

The majority of this manual is dated Aug 15, 1962, for Scully Lathes serial numbers 607, and 619 and subsequent. (Or at least up until the next revision.) Some pieces of the manual appear to be from earlier. These lathes appear to have come from the factory with the aforementioned variable pitch knob and microswitches to trip automatic lead-in and lead-out at the correct diameters. From what I've seen of the older gearbox Scullys, they do not have the automatic switches - their lead in and lead out appear to have been driven from the hand crank or a gear associated with it, which would explain their consistent velocity regardless of turntable speed.

The 33 1/3 rpm speed was always available; 45 and 78 rpm were interchangeable as mentioned by moving a pulley on the motor shaft. The 16 2/3 rpm speed was reached by flipping a switch on the motor, causing it to run at half speed, 900 rpm instead of 1800. Even though it's not mentioned, it thus follows that 22 1/2 and 39 1/8 rpm were also available by this method, should they be required.

The lathes covered by this manual have two rows of pushbuttons on the control panel, to start and stop the stylus heat, motor, leadscrew, tape machine and audio feed, and to make lead-ins and spirals (spreads - switchable between fast (8 lpi) and slow (32 lpi)), and lead-outs with or without an automatic cutterhead lift at the end of the lock groove. The slow or fast pitch of the lead-out on these lathes seems to have been dependant on the size and speed of the record being cut. The manual claims all sizes and speeds now use the 4 lpi pitch, and the 2 lpi relay is only there to return the 4 lpi relay to center; I question this, as I've seen 7" 45s with 2 lpi lead-out cut by Audio Lathe's machine, to whom this manual applies.

This also brings up a question that came to me: I've seen pictures of one of RCA Toronto's Scullys with a Westrex 2B mono head, and with only one row of buttons on the control panel and no visible switches with regards to fast and slow lead ins. If this particular lathe had 14.8 lpi lead-ins and spreads, could this have been a compromise between 8 and 32, and/or a possible cost-cutting measure, only needing one lead-in and spiral relay instead of two? In other words, is there any evidence that lathes which used a 14 - 16 lpi lead-in and spiral also used 8 or 32 lpi anywhere but in the catch groove?

The manual refers to spreads as "spirals", catch grooves as "concentric spirals", and locked grooves as "concentric loops". I prefer W.B.'s terminology though, it's more concise. Spreads or spirals are also referred to as "banding" elsewhere in the manual, and "mark" on Neumann lathes.

In regards to the picture in the previous post: the Variable Pitch Unit on Scullys had an adjustable option for "Feed Expansion" after lead-in, before lead-out and during spreads, to reduce pre- and post-echo at the beginning and ends of songs. However, this only went up to the coarsest regular pitch available, be it 70, 105 or 140 lpi. What I suspect happened in this case was the operator held the "spiral" button down for several revolutions in an attempt to make the record look more "full". (The spiral button will keep going at 8 or 32 lpi for as long as it's held down.) Where or why this may have been standard operating procedure, I'm not sure.

 

Again, many thanks for the compliments on the terminology I use (as well as those valuable tips). However (given your reference to RCA Toronto), I have to give credit to former RCA Toronto mastering engineer (now audio restoration expert) Graham Newton for the term "catch groove," in an E-mail he sent to me in 1999, in response to an enquiry I E-mailed him on that very subject. (The Audio Lathe's owner didn't have any name for it, except quoting from an RCA Victor memo from 1960 referring to '1 to 2 turns at 32 grooves per inch' after the lead-out.) The term "spread groove" came to me via a c.1965-66 newsletter from Bill Putnam's United Recording & Affiliates. (Their definition of "banding" was thus: "The separation of adjacent selections or 'cuts' on a record whereby each cut is terminated by a concentric groove so that the playback stylus will not progress to the next cut.") A 1969 newsletter on the move of their San Francisco affiliate Coast Recorders to Folsom Street (later leased by Columbia Records) cited a Scully with a pitch variation of 60-400 lpi. A typo? Or an earlier model, given I have a 1961 Capitol 45 of short duration measuring 64 lpi?

As for that Scully in RCA Toronto: It seemed to be an early variation of that kind of model, given that I saw a book (The Audio Cyclopedia, 1969 edition) that called that kind of Scully (with one row of buttons) a "mono" lathe, whereas two rows of buttons were listed as indicative of a stereo lathe. The RCA Toronto's Scully, on 45's, had 7.625 lead-in and 14.729167 catch groove; with 2.3 lead-out (the fast-moving one; this based on what I've seen on early Canadian Capitol Beatles 45's cut by the likes of Mr. Newton and Fred Burchill). Another Canadian RCA studio (Montreal, perhaps? Or another cutting room in Toronto?) had 7.625 lead-in, 1.92 fast lead-out and 32.3125 catch groove on the 45's (this, from a J.B. & The Playboys single in my collection). Some studios (i.e. Capitol's on both coasts in 1960-61) switched "fast" lead-ins and spreads from 7.625 to 14.729167, while retaining the "slow" 32.3125 pitch for catch groove. In the case of the Scully used by RCA in New York to cut mono 45's, the switch was from 7.625 to 15.583333, again with 32.3125 remaining the catch groove pitch, also in 1961. (And I go by my many LP's, 45's and even 78's cut on Scullys of post-1951 make to draw the conclusions I have of how different studios cut their lacquers in this regard.) I've never seen three lead-in/spread/catch pitches used on one Scully at the same time.

(I saw that in some cases, the lead-in/spread/catch pitches appeared to be more around 7.7, 14.8 and 32.6. Probably some variables in speed and traveling distance at the time of cutting.)

On that Audio Lathe with 32.3125 pitch for "slow" lead-in, spread and catch groove, what would the "fast" lead-in be? 7.625, or 14.729167? As you mentioned 4.17 for the "slow" lead-out, I'd calculate the "fast" lead-out somewhere between 2.11 and 2.14.

And as to cutting 1 - 2 (or, as in that pic, what looked like four) extra 32.3125-pitch "spirals" before cutting the lead-out: Quite a few studios over the years had this form of cutting as S.O.P., including the main stereo lathe in Columbia's New York studios (usually their "spiral" lasted about a quarter of a turn long, but sometimes they went overboard), one of the lathes at Bell Sound Studios from between c.1962 and 1966 (as on many a Rolling Stones 45), and the mono lathe at Atlantic Studios from c.1962 to 1969.

 

I do, however, have a copy of Glenn Miller: A Legendary Performer (RCA CPM2-0693, 1974), with the lacquer for Record 1, Side 1 (designated as 'CPM2-0693A-5'), having a lead-in of 15.583333, spread of 7.625 and catch of 32.3125. And a lead-out of 3.92. This was the Scully on which many mono 45 lacquers originating from RCA in New York (and, from the late 1960's on, very few mono LP's) were cut from c. the mid-to-late 1950's to the end of 1974.

 

And on the c.1938-39 Scully used by Columbia until 1966: I only saw one record use the 177.1875 lpi pitch - on an LP, no less. Lacquer number XXLP43611-2BE, cut around 1961 or thereabouts, which was Side 2 of the 1958 LP Ravel: Bolero / La Valse / Rapsodie Espagnole (Columbia Masterworks ML 5293) by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic. Oh, and it was a circa 1962 "two-eye" pressing, at that, from Pitman.

 

One other thing: The Scully model used by Columbia in Hollywood to cut first lacquers of Byrds LP's and 45's post-1966 (as well as by the Nashville studios for the stereo lacquers of their Sweetheart of the Rodeo-era material) would've been a 601, which was first unveiled in 1955. (The 601 had the two rows of buttons on the control panel; can any Scully expert who frequents this forum advise as to which was the model number of the earlier lathe, introduced in 1950, with the 70-400 / 105-600 / 140-800 variable pitch knobs - and a control panel with only one row of buttons - as seen on this photo, plus the type being used by RCA Toronto as detailed in Post #41?) The old-style Scully with the gearbox used in New York up to 1966 (and Nashville on mono lacquers up to 1972-73 - and also in use at Aardvark Mastering) was designated model #501 (evidently model numbers are different from serial numbers).

 

My Fifth Dimension is:

Side 1: Stamped -1H
Side 2: Handwritten -1C

Sounds gorgeous!

 

Columbia Nashville/Owen Bradley Studios did cut lacquers. And their deadwax is hand scribed.

 

WoW!! I've never consumed so much info in such a short thread! There's always a member that blows you away with knowledge. Impressive bunch of folks on here.

 

Great that this thread was revived. Now does anyone have any info on Byrds 360 LP matrix numbers?

 

I have to go lie down now, too much information is like too much Turkey. But good...