Well, as I've said elsewhere, all the tracks that appeared on the Never Before CD/LP, plus many on the first box set, remain dubious. The lack of complete information makes it impossible to be sure. But if what you suggest is true, then it's curious that this particular 1980s overdub (if that is what it is) only surfaces in 2012 on a Japanese release, in mono. Sorry - I was replying to MarcS a few posts above.
Interesting. Were they 1966-67 out-takes? Pre-overdubs? Sorry to be so naggingly persistent, but this is a topic that intrigues and at the same time irks me. The earliest date I have heard for the overdubs The Byrds did is 1987. My guess is that the mono mix of "I Know My Rider" on the mono+stereo Japan 5D is an original from 1966 and that the stereo version on the Legacy 5D is a late 1980s remix where they removed the Crosby vocal (where he sings along with the guitar refrain). I realize I could be well wrong here, and I appreciate the input of anyone who knows more about this than me.
Didn't that tape have the Never Before tracks without the overdubs, though? Like "Disembodied Spirit"...
I remember it had multiple takes of Thoughts and Words and I Know My Rider and the Crosby vocal overdub part on Rider was very loud in the mix. The whole thing was very hissy.
That's why I'm wondering. The presence of "I Know My Rider", with the extra bit of Crosby vocal, on that bootleg tape would suggest the mono mix on the Japan mono+stereo CD is a vintage 1966 mix. But I admit I'm fumbling in the dark here, commenting on evidence from 30 years ago which I never heard!
I see. So it was a copy of some rough mixes of various takes. I would assume the Crosby overdub you refer to is a 1966 overdub. Was this the same tape that had "an untitled Gene Clark song with muffled vocals" i.e. "The Day Walk"? I remember reading about it around that time, possibly in an article by Rogan in a zine.
Yes rough takes but I'm not so sure the overdubs were original era. If the mixes were around because of work on the Never Before album its also possible they include later overdubs.
I've got a boot that has that material ("The Lost Studio Sessions"). It contains two versions of "Rider" described as rough mixes. Both are stereo. One has the Crosby vocal at the end while the other does not. It also contains a version of "It Happens Each Day" described as the "original mix" but which sounds like a completely different take to me. It does not have the acoustic overdubs. My guess is that the Crosby vocal bit at the end of "Rider" is vintage, not an 80s overdub. It would be kind of an odd, random thing for him to go in and add 20 years later. Why would he do that? The other overdubs added were either to finish a track ("It Happens Each Day") or to "fix" it ("Lady Friend"). Neither is the case here. Also, remember that Never Before was released twice: the vinyl version in 1987, and the CD version in 1989. The 10-song vinyl version was assembled and mixed by Jim Dickson, who brought in Hillman and Crosby to do overdubs. The 7 bonus tracks added to the CD version were assembled two years later, mixed by McGuinn and Ken Robertson. It seems unlikely McGuinn would have brought in Crosby to do a random vocal overdub on "Rider" at that point. A far more likely scenario is that McGuinn didn't think that bit fit the song and left it off when he mixed it to stereo.
Thinking further... another point in favor of that Crosby vocal bit on "Rider" being vintage: Why would McGuinn have Crosby come in to the studio to record that little vocal bit in 1989, and then not use it? That doesn't make sense. If it was recorded in 1989, it almost certainly would have been used on the remix made then.
Not necessarily, Hillman also added a mandolin to a track that was never used around the same time as I recall.
It was "Old John Robinson," and the track wasn't released at all. Different scenario than "polishing" a track, mixing out the "polish," and releasing it anyway. I think it's unlikely that Croz's handful of vocal notes in the Canceled Flytes version of "Rider" are a latter-day update, for the reasons Jason lists above.
Just to complicate things further, In The Beginning has some kind of reverb or echo on the tracks - some folks may prefer the sound overall.
I'm currently collecting The Byrds on Vinyl. So far in order I got ; Greatest Hits; The Notorious Byrds Brothers; Sweetheart of the Rodeo; Untitled ; Mr. Tambourine Man ... what is recommended next please?
The complicating factor is that "Rider" was pulled from the vault and mixed two years after Crosby was involved in overdubbing tracks for the vinyl Never Before. So if his vocal bit on that song was overdubbed, it would have to be a scenario like this: 1. McGuinn mixes the seven bonus tracks for the Never Before cd, and the other band members are sent copies of the material to sign off on it. 2. Crosby says he wants to add a little vocal bit to "Rider" and comes into the studio specifically to do that. 3. Crosby does his vocal overdub, but McGuinn does not use it when he prepares the final mix. 4. Crosby apparently doesn't care. So it's not only odd that they'd do an overdub but not use it, it's even more odd that he'd come in specifically just to record such an inconsequential overdub. And even odder still that he would not care that it wasn't used. Also, it seems unlikely a mono mix of the song would have been prepared in 1989 for any reason, and they certainly wouldn't have made a mono mix specifically for the Japanese SHM release. All this adds up to the strong likelihood that the mono mix of "Rider" is vintage.
Indeed, and I tend to think that Crosby's vocal actually sounds like a guide vocal for the guitar part.
Given the discussion we've been having, I thought it would be fun to try to summarize all the known and suspected latter-day overdubs on Byrds CDs. The Byrds Columbia tapes were trolled for outtakes four times in the CD era, with modern overdubbing happening at least twice: 1987: Original ten-song Never Before LP: Overdubbed were It Happens Each Day (acoustic guitar overdub by Hillman), Lady Friend (original Clarke drums replaced by new Stan Lynch drum track), Triad (vocal fix), Old John Robertson (mandolin overdub by Hillman, unreleased). 1989: Never Before CD bonus tracks: If we presume the previously-discussed bit in I Know My Rider was not an overdub, then there apparently was no overdubbing on these seven tracks. 1990: The Byrds box set: Overdubbed were Pretty Polly and Lazy Days (electric 12-string by McGuinn). The box also retained the previously-released Never Before overdubs for all songs except Lady Friend, though the tracks themselves were remixed. 1996-97: The individual album CD remasters: To my knowledge there were no new overdubs, but they retained all the previous overdubs except (again) the drums on Lady Friend. Is there anything I missed? I seem to recall there being speculation about other possible overdubs, but I can't remember what.
The tape of 'Old John Robertson', which I believe ended up in Rogan's collection, is odd in the sense that Sony wouldn't allow 'foreign instruments' to be added (ie the mandolin) but they DID allow Michael's drums to be replaced and guitar on 'It Happens Each Day'
An excellent wrap-up. Note that the Sweetheart-era overdubs have to my knowledge never been officially confirmed, though there is plenty of evidence for them. All I believe is missing is a live track on the first box set -- was it "Lover of the Bayou"?
I check out after Notorious. I would highly recommend finding the first four Columbia albums in mono, if you can. I would also try to find Preflyte (Columbia or Together releases) and In the Beginning (Rhino).
I recommend Fifth Dimension and Younger Than Yesterday; they are my favorite Byrds albums because I love the directions they took following the departure of Gene Clark (less jangly, less romantic, more introspective, more jaded, the emergence of Croz/Hillman, etc.); furthermore, I am not a fan either of Clark's songwriting or voice. They lose me again at Sweetheart. There, I got these things off my chest. Let the flaming begin.
You’d never get attacked for expressing an opinion, unless you said something deliberately inflammatory like “Gene Clark sucks,” which is a threadcrap and may result in the post being removed for that reason.
