Byrds Nyrds: Talk about anything Byrds related here..... (part 2)

Sure. I understand. It just seems like we are all unqualified to decide one way or another who is sincere or insincere in whatever emotion or value is being expressed by any particular singer in a song.
I'm just a little worried if religious values or lack of them become a big thread issue here the thread will get closed.

 

I am reasonably certain that I am the only one in this forum who likes BOTH Byrdmaniax AND the reunion album, no apologies, no reservations. I especially love the eclectic character of Byrdmaniax.

 

Yeah, but you were the one who stated Gram was insincere in singing "The Christian Life".

I think he was 100% sincere, as was McGuinn who does a reasonably nice copy of Gram's vocal.

It's a song, guys. I think sometimes a singer will pick a song just because: 1) it sounds good or 2) he or she is going after a certain feeling that the song portrays. Both of these were probably the case here.

Where is it written that a singer must adapt a lifestyle written about in a song?

OBVIOUSLY Gram could and would never be mistaken for someone who gave up booze and accepted the Christian life. Just my 2 cents, but for anyone to call him insincere in this choice of a song is absurd.

 

Dmitri, I like your style.

 

Do you guys think THE LOUVIN BROTHERS were being sincere or ironic when they WROTE "The Christian Life?"

Ira was certainly no saint, and based on Charlie's between-song banter on his last tour, he wasn't one either.

 

I like both of these albums as well, just don't think that overall they're up there with their best work.

 

Well, we aren't robots, we're humans. It's possible to have two contradictory feelings at the same time, like "I love my girlfriend and don't want to hurt her" but also "I really want to have sex with this groupie who's here right now." Acting on the latter impulse doesn't mean a person doesn't truly feel the former emotion too. Or it's possible to act in ways that contradict or violate your sincerely-held beliefs... for example it's possible to sincerely believe infidelity is morally wrong, yet still do it. That's the whole definition of sin... acting in ways that contradict your beliefs or feelings about what's right.

 

True, but I think they were 100% sincere. I think Ira regretted the horrible things he did, felt guilty about them, and wished he could live the life described in that song. Again illustrating my point that sincerity is measured by what one feels, not by what one does.

 

The 60s.....(and a good reminder for all of us too).

http://i.imgur.com/SnrMr98.gif

 

No I left open the possibility that he was sincere but was mentally imbalanced and out of touch with reality.

I don't believe he was intending to sincerely expressing the views in the songs but I can't know that for a certainty.

To me the impossibility of knowing for a certainty what goes on in another person's head doesn't mean it is not worth discussing an artist's intent.

 

Yes, that is exactly my point about the Byrds' version.

 

I thought Hillman's part was great. Hillman never lets you down. And he was as smooth as ever here. Then Gene comes on and kicks Hillman's smooth professionalism to curb.

 

Here's my 2 cents worth as a Southerner who was raised in a Fundamentalist church: I think the Louvins were very sincere. I think a Southerner like Gram can often relate to such songs even if he doesn't share their point of view. I first head the song as sung by McGuinn when I was 16 & loved it. It didn't occur to me to wonder if he was "sincere", but I'm sure that I assumed that he couldn't possibly be in agreement with the song's sentiments. Neither was I, but I still loved it & still enjoy his performance.Having said that, I will agree that
Parsons sounds more "sincere"; that (and not his at times uncertain pitch) was his great strength. For Roger at his most "sincere" I would recommend "5D".

 

I guess I never thought it was sincere, myself, either. That didn't stop me from enjoying it, though.

I think the thing that made it sound 'insincere' was the faux-Southern accent, at least as reproduced by McGuinn. It that era it was considered a 'put down' or satire for anyone 'hip' to speak Southern because of all that went on in the South in the era, and yet with McGuinn's folk-cred a nice piece of Americana. Confusing, but that's how I saw it. Haven't thought about it in many years though...just enjoy the record.

 

I think McGuinn's seemingly insincere reading of the song makes it quite interesting, gives it an "edge". Now a totally heartfelt Parsons vocal is in theory something that could be quite moving but his takes on it that I've heard didn't really work for me.

 

But if a person has contradictory feelings, producing equally contradictory actions, then how can you possibly tell which are the true and sincere feelings? The ones that accord with his or her beliefs? But then you are subordinating emotions to rational thought. If you extoll the virtues of monogamy while engaging in infidelity, then writing a song about the former will seem an awful lot like rationalizing - an activity of the mind rather than the heart.

 

Initially coming to Sweetheart as a non country fan I much preferred McGuinn's vocals on Sweetheart but thanks to The Byrds and the offshoot bands I am now a Country fan and I love the Gram versions with McGuinn on harmony vocals. It would have been better if when they overdubbed McGuinn, Hillman had replaced the backing vocals at the same time - it would have sounded nicer than multitracked McGuinn.

The only song I don't think Gram did justice is One Hundred Years, I like the McGuinn/Hillman version more. Even better is the Flyte version with Gene Clark singing, hope it gets an official release some day.

 

If a person has two contradictory feelings, then they both are sincere and true. It's not a matter of one being true and the other false, or one being a feeling and the other a thought. People can have two contradictory feelings at the same time. That's why we are so inconsistent and troublesome to deal with.

If a person writes a song extolling monogamy despite being a serial cheater, that could be rationalization. But it could also be a manifestation of guilt. Or it could be an expression of hope or aspiration to do better in the future. Or it could be a sincere expression of a belief they hold that they are unable to live up to. It doesn't have to be a case of subordinating emotion to thought... the desire to extol monogamy could be based on emotion too.

 

I think that the decision to replace the Parsons vocals was, at the time, a wise move (regardless of the reasons) given that one of the band's defining sounds had been McGuinn's voice and that to suddenly take such a left-field turn into a kind of "Country" was risky enough....they would (and the suits would) want to take the audience that they already had along with them. The existing fan base may not have been so willing to give the music a chance had the new (and at that time pretty much unknown) member been given so many lead vocals. The version of "One Hundred Years..." is IMO, and as you say, much superior in the McGuinn/Hillman incarnation. The odd thing is that when they did some of these songs live, with Parsons taking lead vocals, they still sounded like "The Byrds" because McGuinn's 12 string Ricky was prominent (and he took the solos) and of course, the harmonies, so the continuum was still there.

 

That's for sure. When I first bought Sweetheart, I was surprised at how many lead vocals Gram got, considering he was a new member. He got more than Hillman! If they'd left his voice on those three songs, he would have been singing more than half the album. I prefer all the Gram lead vocals (including the one on "One Hundred Years from Now") but I can see why they didn't think it was wise (either commercially or from an ego standpoint) to suddenly reduce themselves to just being GP's backing band.

 

Didn't most people think "The Christian Life" was Parsons? I did for decades, until I saw here that is was McGuinn. Is the "SOTR" album version of "100 Years" Parsons and McGuinn?

 

McGuinn and Hillman. The "...Christian Life" vocal is McGuinn imitating Parsons' delivery (and by his own account, adding an ironic twist).

 

Has anyone here obtained the High Moon Records reissue of Two Sides To Every Story? Just curious on sound.

 

And Jim, re-reading So You Want to be a Rock and Roll Star slowly this time, so a few things sink in with me rather than blasting through it like the first time I read it.. it's interesting to me that the gigs with Gram and Kevin went over very well with the crowds, and possibly went over better than many of the shows the original five Byrds performed. McGuinn proudly mentions that they got their first standing ovation ever at MIT and I don't think he means the new version of the Byrds, he's talking the Byrds career thus far. Most of the reviews seem to be very positive, mentioning that the Byrds are now tight and professional, and they seem to be greeted with open minds and little griping about the missing Gene, David and Michael.

 

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/gene-clarks-two-sides-to-every-story-to-be-re-released.240837/