Captain Beefheart Safe As Milk from the MONO master on Sundazed!!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Laservampire, Jul 19, 2012.

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  1. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Focusing on whether it sounds good is missing the point. A person who buys this release presumably does so because they want to hear the original mono mix. If your only concern is to hear the album in mono, you can simply take a good-sounding stereo version and fold it down yourself. That would give you a good-sounding mono version without need to spend a dime.

    The point is, people don't just want to hear a mono version, they want to hear the authentic mono mix. The Sundazed release does not contain the original mono mix (it contains only parts of it). That is the basis for the dissatisfaction. Regardless of how it sounds, it does not contain what it is being marketed as containing.
     
  2. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    Fair enough.

    To equate it with a fold-down of the stereo is incorrect though. If we take Lukpac's analysis as the gospel, then at least 80% or more of the playing time is the true mono mix. Two tracks are mostly fold-downs with bits of the mono edited in (likely the parts that are the most unique-sounding mix-difference wise) and the other tracks are the mono mix with only a small bit at the start and end being from a folded stereo.

    Why didn't they just use a mono needledrop for the whole thing? I don't know. They tried to fool us I guess.
     
  3. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    I lost respect for them after this as well. They slipped up, that's for sure. I just disagree that it is such a heinous offense as to swear off their company altogether. Since the SAM debacle I have continued to buy multiple releases from them and the large majority sound really good (of course, unlike others, I certainly don't expect them to best an original 1A pressing). The Donovan mono reissues, in particular, are fantastic. The 3LP Moe Tucker anthology is a wonderful collection. The Commander Cody Live in San Francisco is a great document of a hot band. I could go on...
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  4. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Yep, they apparently intended to deceive buyers. It is puzzling, since (given the rarity of decent condition copies of the mono LP) I think they would have sold just as many copies if they'd done a good quality needle drop and been upfront about it. The deception seems unnecessary, and it seems a foolish risk to have taken, since the discovery of the deception has certainly hurt their reputation.

    And yes, it's true that you get some of the actual mono mix from the Sundazed whereas you would not with a fold-down. But it's still not a satisfactory product in terms of delivering what the buyer wants. If you ordered a pepperoni pizza and they gave you one that was 80% pepperoni but had some anchovies around the edges of each piece, you probably wouldn't just accept it and say "well, at least it's mostly pepperoni."
     
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  5. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    I'm still curious about the mystery master tape photo that was supposedly posted on Sundazed's Facebook page back in 2013. Was that some sort of "forgery" as well?

    Strange stuff.
     
  6. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing Thread Starter

    The tape (or at least the box) did exist for sure as I spoke to another engineer who had seen it with his own eyes, well before the Sundazed announcement.

    I'm guessing that either the tape itself was missing/irreparably damaged or Sundazed weren't able to procure it after posting the photo (and god knows when the photo was taken).

    Fingers crossed it's still out there and may be used in the future.
     
    Chris M and IDwithnoE like this.
  7. Here's another photo of it they posted:
    [​IMG]

    Gotta love how they (if it really was them) took the photos crappily and "guerilla-style", as opposed to the other tape boxes they've posted before:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    (Side note, whatever happened to that planned mono "Ten Years After" they were gonna put out?)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Wait so which parts are not true mono?
    The first 3 tracks maybe?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Not sure what you’re referring to. The Sundazed release is mono. The issue is that rather than having been sourced from a mono tape, a combination of a mono needledrop and a stereo fold-down (from tape) was used. The specific details are above.
     
  10. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes I meant which parts are not from a mono source.
     
  11. lou

    lou Fast 'n Bulbous

    Location:
    Louisiana
    Apparently a lot - definitely most of the beginnings and ends of songs, plus lots of other parts where the needle drop was going to be too obvious. A real patchwork quilt sonic mess.
     
  12. Scope J

    Scope J Senior Member

    Location:
    Michigan
  13. Scope J

    Scope J Senior Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    Is their Big Brother mono legit?
     
  14. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
  15. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I did think some parts had quite a bit of distortion and the first 3 tracks even seemed to get some of it in stereo. But the Spotify version also has it so I figured it was just recorded like that.
     
  16. bscepter

    bscepter Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    So barring spending hundreds on an original Budda release, what's the best mono version of this available?
     
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  17. RandelPink

    RandelPink The camel wore a nightie

    Location:
    LA
    Sundazed, sounds good to my ears.
     
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  18. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    The Sundazed sounds good, but has sections (mostly at the beginning and end of tracks) that are actually from a folded-down stereo mix. The theory is that they were trying to mask the needledrop source that they were using.
     
    Laservampire likes this.
  19. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing Thread Starter

    On google there's a needledrop floating around by a certain professor who may be a little stoned. He's done the best mono Beefheart transfer.


    Keep in mind that bscepter is asking for the best mono mix, not the best mono/stereo-fold hybird. And the answer to that question would be the original pressing. It's all there is, bar the needledrops that people have done.

    (And all of the available needledrops are wholly better than the needledrop that Sundazed partly used anyway)
     
  20. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    To me, the Sundazed LP sounded a little bit better than the needledrop I had, which I equate to a nice mastering/EQ job by Bob Irwin. There’s not a huge difference either way though other than the drop being 100% the mono mix, rather than 87% or whatever the Sundazed is.
     
    RandelPink likes this.
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The needledrop mentioned above is at worst equal to and at best better than the Sundazed.
     
  22. DrewMeyer

    DrewMeyer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona
    Does anyone have an opinion on the Mono Safe As Milk released on Marble Arch in the UK? Much more affordable than an original, is it a fold?
     
  23. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Fold.
     
  24. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing Thread Starter

    Based on lukpac's analysis there is roughly 8 and a half minutes of the Sundazed that is a stereo fold, so closer to 75%.
     
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  25. Collapsed Lung

    Collapsed Lung Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York, NY
    ...I wasn't aware of this kerfuffle until now and, reading back through the thread, it's quite fascinating. Regardless of the resulting product (which I recall as being fairly listenable), it's clear that Sundazed not only deceived potential buyers, but then refused to acknowledge their deception -- choosing instead to mock their own customers. That's really disappointing. It's almost as disappointing as the packaging on most of their vinyl reissues: Flimsy paperboard sleeves, no additional notes, mediocre cover scans, etc. Funny that the mono Safe As Milk reissue was one of their better efforts packaging-wise, including an insert with new notes and cool sticker...

    Their smarmy attitude has definitely been noted by this consumer...
     
    RandelPink, Scope J, lukpac and 2 others like this.
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