Cartridges: Inner Groove Distortion Vs. Surface Noise

My Ortofon Quintet Black has a Shibata; no IGD at all.

 

0.2 W/F is very poor. Compare it to the spec of 1970s and 1980s turntables by Technics, Dual etc..

Technics SL1200 series....0.035%
Dual CS505.....0.05%
Pioneer PL12D....0.07%

Personally, I wouldn't bother with a turntable that has worse spec than these...

 

Get a good cartridge and stylus. Fit it correctly, referring to the overhang mm in the service manual.
Fine line or nude stylii will track best, though they are often brighter sounding and can be revealing of surface noise. High Output Moving Coils and MMs with Shibata stylus will have a more traditional 'analogue' sound, and surface noise will be less audible. There is often a trade-off, with IGD being more prevalent however. Some records will sound better and track better on FL/N, and vice versa...

Fitting either of these type of high performing cartridges to a high spec turntable (note that the cartridge must be suitable for the tonearm) will give you excellent, consistent quality sound.

With a turntable like the Technics SL1200 series, you can mount cartridges on interchangeable headshells.
I would personally go for Denon DL110 and Ortofon Concorde with OM20 or 30 stylus on separate headshells on this set-up.

 

If rumble, speed variation, inner groove distortion, and surface noise bother you, I gotta wonder why you're listening to vinyl in the first place. Those things are endemic in vinyl playback, though they can be enormously minimized with a top notch turntable. Most of those things aren't going to be much effected by the phono cart -- rumble is a function of stuff like bearing noise and motor noise being coupled to the platter and/or arm; speed variation primarily relates to motor accuracy and torque and depending on the kind of motor, good electronic control, and things like the platter flywheel effect; subsonic resonances from vinyl eccentricity like warps can be addressed by fluid damping of the tonearm.

Yeah, a line contact type stylus shape -- presuming it's as well polished as an alternative well polished hyper elliptical -- should minimize IGD, but there are a lot of ellipticals with IDG that's all but non existent with anything but the most aggressively cut records, too; and can help reduce surface noise on some used records that have never previously been played with a line contact stylus, depending on what type of surface noise you're talking about. And picking a cartridge whose mass compliance relationship with the tonearm puts the resonant frequency circa 10 Hz can minimize the impact of warps -- if you're hearing low frequency noise from slight warps, you probably have a poor mass-compliance set up and maybe too high of a tracking force employed. '

But if you have a total $500 budget for a arm, table and cartridge.... I'd worry less about the cartridge and more about getting a table that best addresses those noise issues, and if that means saving money by going with an elliptical stylus (it won't be your last cartridge or stylus) vs. a line contact stylus, I think you're better off saving there if it means being able to get a more inert turntable that better terminates system resonances.

 

Origin of IGD is pinch effect, so one doesn´t need a fine line to eliminate this kind of problem, a good well poliched elliptical with side radi of 0.2mil works fine. Noise is more tricky as noise is depending on so many different parameters. But they all end up in vibrations; noise is to the largest part vibrations, either of the needle or the cantilever.
Can´t really say if I consider any needle more prone to noise, than another. I have no problems with noise on any I use. If there is noise it´s usually from the recording.

Like here on this one. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39225261/Mask.5.0,2mil.wav.wav

 

Having owned similar TTs you listed:

Dual CS506......o.o7%(which I still have)
Pioneer PL12DII....0.1% or less(which I traded for the Dual)

The Dual was a pain in the ass and the Pioneer was one of the best TTs I've owned!

W & F has never been a problem with the AT-LP120's I have. The only problems I've had with them is the crappy AT carts they came with and once the anti-skate hanging up and then releasing sending the tone arm across the record.

As the point of my post, IGD starts with the mastering process cutting the lacquers. And, if you are worried about W & F, you wouldn't want to know the drive specs of the cutting lathes.

 

Right, with a properly aligned Shibata stylus, you should hear little to no IGD. What little IGD you might occasionally hear could have been cut onto the record itself due to carelessness by the mastering engineer. Shibata and most other line-contact styli have a very narrow front-to-back dimension which allows them to more accurately trace those tightly compacted wiggles during inner groove play.

 

Get a CD player

 

Inner groove distortion is a fault of the record, cut too loud. A record should sound undistorted from outer to inner grooves, accomplished by cutting at the standard velocity's) even by a conical needle. Many, including pre stereo mono records are fine but many records have a too long playingtime and are filled to the label with too loud cutted music, a linecontact or shibata stylus is a compromise, not perfect. I refuse to get poor in order to avoid bad mastering out of specs.

 

I cannot see that complaining about if the record is cut hot or not will help. I want to play the records I buy with the best result I reasonably can. Then I can´t use a conical.

 

Most of my records have no IGD with a conical needle. Only some loud cutted or extended play, 30 minutes, ones.
A conical in good shape fine, I replace needle when soundquality diminishes, cheap also.
45's never ever have IGD by the way. Have lots of them.
Why extract more out of a record that is impossible in the first place and is never intended to do so. Mastering is good or .....bad, that's it.

 

That is fine of course, but again it won´t help me. Most records I buy are rather old. A conical can´t get the most out of them, that´s it.

 

Mr Missan, just accept there are lots of bad disc's around. Just like so many bad CD's with brickwall compression.
I am a fan of fifties music, quality contol and mastering then was so much better. Stereo was a step back regarding sound quality and distortion.
When mastering of records is done some 6 dB less all tracking problems would be over.
Sorry I am of no help, buying expensive shibata or fine line needles could ameliorate your complaints, an expensive route and succes not 100% guaranteed.

 

Many varied opinions and advice from seasoned audio enthusiasts, all good advice. What I agree with most is to buy a good turntable now, even if it almost breaks the $500.00 budget. A better cartridge can be added later. A good start and compromise on the cartridge for now would be the Shure M97-XE. In my experience the elliptical stylus negotiates the inner groove very nicely, most records will play cleanly all the way through. It's a great tracker. The most demanding passages on certain records may encounter some inner groove distortion, but IMO not objectionable, but something to put up with until you upgrade to a Shibata.

Go with a really great turntable first, then upgrade the cartridge later. A linear tracking TT is not going to benefit very much, go with the great rumble spec, low wow and flutter, feedback isolation.. a really great pivotal arm TT. Good turntables produce lower surface noise.. the cartridge performs better.

 

That's because the higher groove speed results in a larger groove curvature at high frequencies. Easier for the stylus to trace. At 45 RPM, 20 kHz has the same "wiggle" as 14 kHz at 33.3 RPM. However, groove noise increases. Pick your poison.

A decent CHEAP cartridge is the AT92ECD. Good elliptical, 0.3 x 0.7 mil. If they still make them.

 

Yes, 45 RPM is the better speed for higher resolution and lowered distortion. The lower groove pitch minimizes pinch effect (IGD) at the inner groove area.

Groove noise is not necessarily increased at 45 RPM. I conducted a simple experiment with a 45 RPM single. This same experiment can be made with any record. On the lead in groove, play the record at 33 1/3, then play it at 45 RPM, note the difference in noise. No need to measure anything, just use your ears. The idea is to note which speed produces lower noise.

Next, with a direct drive turntable only, apply hand braking on the platter, just to slow it down to a much lower speed, any speed you want, approx 10 rpm, or 3 rpm. Note the surface noise on the silent lead in groove.
The noise level will be extremely high, the opposite of what I thought... So noise actually increases as the speed is lowered.. given 45 RPM as the reference point.

 

I have always been a fan of the 45rpm record. Although I was aware of the classical EMI record label having 45rpm 12" releases, I wasn't into it back then. But, when Classic Records began releasing classic album on 200g single-sided 12" discs, I started buying them and fell in love with the format. On many of the "heavyweight" vinyl re-issues, it seams that it takes a 45rpm version to replicate the sound and frequency range of the original LP. Two which come to mind are Classic Records' 45rpm versions of "Crosby, Stills & Nash" and Dave Brubeck's "Time Out". Classic Records put out a comparison disc from the "Casino Royale" soundtrack, "The Look Of Love" by Dusty Springfield which had the 45rpm version on one side and the 33 1/3rpm version on the other, plus also available in 180g or 200g vinyl. The 45rpm version wins out on both.

On my home theater system, I used an ADC Accutrac +6, which plays both 33 and 45rpm, automatically selects speed by optically sensing the size of the record. So, all 7" records only play at 45rpm(so I can't play compact 33's on it) and all 12" records only play at 33 1/3rpm(so I can't play my 45rpm album on it). I also have a Seeburg HSC3 home stereo console which only plays 12" LP's and has only one speed, 33 1/3rpm, but it does hold 50 LP's.

An exception that I've found in 45rpm releases is the ORG 45rpm release of "Tapestry" by Carole King. It sounds no better than the original release pressed by Monarch Records or the superior pressing by Columbia Santa Maria. The only vinyl version which I have found that blows the originals off the map is the MFSL version. It's even better than the Classic Records version.

I have also developed an appreciation for old late-50's 78rpm records. Although a little more noisy, frequency range seems a lot wider and they have more punch than their companion 7" 45rpm versions. It's a shame that most record players couldn't fully take advantage of the great sound of these records back in the 50's.

 

True, same goes for 33 rpm cutted less loud. Records are cut loud, too loud, to make them less noisy. If people are carefull with their records this is no problem however.
Don't trust manufacturers, the CD has no tracking problems, no noise, no dynamic limitations but most are screwed by signal processing.
Perfect records exist and reach the top 50 of legendary platters to have. It limits of course your choice in music. I dont like second rate music in pristine soundquality, I go for music regardless of sound quality. As long as it is bearable.

 

One reason for the "punch" of 78's is that even though tape had been around for years, many of them were recorded direct to disc. And shellac just plain sounds different than vinyl.

 

If surface noise is your pet peeve in life then turntables probably aren't all that great a hobby for you.

Any decent cartridge won't do all that bad with IGD. Get a good cart, set it up properly, and enjoy your records.

 

78's punch ?, you got musical ears, just a matter of dynamics. Serious 45's almost as good, 33 more compressed, CD's brickwalled. High Fidelity a long time gone.

 

First, most 78's were NOT recorded "direct to disc", especially after WWII. Even while 78rpm was the "standard" speed until the introduction of the LP, most major recording studios had upgraded to magnetic tape and dating back to the 30's, the music used in movies was recorded optically on film stock in multi-track. The music soundtrack was optically recorded for movies like Disney's "Fantasia" and "The Wizard Of Oz", both movies being recorded in atleast 3 tracks. Just like the session master tape, in the 78rpm era, the recorded material was recorded to large lacquer or metal session discs, which could be 33 1/3rpm or 78rpm. These session discs were then dubbed to standard 78rpm acetates and the record manufacturing process went much the same as is does today. Most of the metal masters and stampers were scrapped for the WWII metal drives. Archival copies were either pressed and stored or re-dubbed back to acetates.

Post WWII, the shellac formula was changed, making a more brittle 78. Even 78's started being made out of other materials like vinyl and styrene, becoming more common by the end of the 50's.

78's and 45's were simultaneously pressed starting with the debut of the 45rpm single up until the end of U.S. 78 production by 1959. Canada and other countries continued 78's sometimes for another decade. This doesn't include the "kiddie" 78's made in the U.S. into the 70's.

Now, the reasons late-50's 78's sound pretty good and have a lot of punch, the sound levels could be increased due to the faster speed including bass levels. It was less likely that grooves would run into each other like they can do on slower speeds. With the average turntable being fairly minimal, the sound advantages may not have been so apparent. Because of the faster speed, turntable rumble was not as much a problem compared to 33 or 45rpm. Rumble starts with the recording lathe and is added to by the playback turntable.

 

That is no explanation for the dynamic natural sound of most 78's. Up until the end of the 78 area High Fidelity was the goal preserving everything as good as possible what makes music so appealing. A bit of noise, limited frequency range, a little rumble, a tick or pop, who cared, but most important was a reasonable lifelike dynamic range. One of the first things you learn playing an instrument or learning singing is DYNAMICS. Listen to The Singing Brakeman", Jimmy Rodgers from 1929 (search Youtube), crappy, noisy, but lifelike dynamics. After the introduction of stereo dynamics vanished, on records for technical reasons, later on for commercial/soundshaping reasons, now all is brickwalled. I really dont get it, where is HIFI gone to ?

 

This is a 1950's 78.

http://www.deepskyaudio.com/beautifulblonde.mp3

Could have been better. But that's the "78 sound".