CD-R's...any advice?

Maxell makes a CDR-PRO that uses an AZO dye and a highly reflective sub surface. They're fairly rugged and do well at high speeds with the right writer. I use those for more serious things.

Mitsumi golds are also very good.

 

So the question becomes: Why are these better than other blanks? Is it the dye? Is it the sub surface? Is it some sort of "quality control" issue? I do know that different manufacturers, so as to avoid royalty payments to manufacturers of copy-righted dyes, invent their own dye configurations. Some have simply *got* to be better than others. If so, do we know which ones?

 

Now we do. The unfortunate part of it is, there ARE some CDR's that are better than others, but that changes like the quality of produce at your Farmer's Market.

Yes, Maxell makes a wonderful PRO use CDR, but they're more expensive and DO make a wonderful burn. In a few months from now, they'll use phthalocyanine? My opinion: They better NOT change a F***n thing.

Not like the dye has everything to do with it, but in my travels AZO is great as long as the sub surface and bond is solid. An example in mind, I bought some Sonys that were Azo, but they flaked off in less than a year with moderate use. The PRO's still hold up well. The difference? The BOND. I've bought older Gold/Green CDs from auctions (before eBay was popular) when you bid on 100 at a time in jewels. They are unbranded, so they tend to be a tad on the sensitive side. They hold information really well (AZO) but I only have a few I've kept over many years.

Phthalocyanine dye CDRs are most dominant now. 90% of all CDRs are phthalocyanine. Azo, supposedly perfected by Verbatim claims to have a shelf life of 100 years. True? Not always.

There is no pure answer to CDRs. Does cost matter? Not always. Does brand matter? Not any more. Does branded CDRS matter? Usually. Branded CDRs I've had stand up to elements better. Unbraded are just as good, but they're skin-thin naked on the top side, and are senstitive to light, dropping and climactic changes.

CDR users on Audio-only decks (Hi-Fi Dedicated decks) have LESS choice because almost EVERY Audio-CDR specific CDR is phthalocyanine, but usually branded.

Seek out some Maxell CDR PRO's (blue branded CDR's, green reflective dye). The winner is the way they've bonded these suckers.

These are MY results, and as years go by, this information seems to strengthen over time. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct. Your milage may differ.

Hope that helps.... In short, shelf storage and the BOND seems to help the most. The rest seems to change no matter how you shoot.

 

Verbatim is one that uses AZO and their claim is long-term stability. Like Grant, I've had good luck with Sony, but then again, my recorder isn't fussy. Nothing's gone bad yet, but none of them are all that old, either. Longevity and stability are what we're after - let's face it, unlike audio tape, there's no difference in the sound. The disc records the 1's and 0's or it doesn't.

Funny, my local BJ Wholesale had Kodak Golds this past year at $20 for a 40-pack in slim jewel cases. The cases alone were worth half the purchase price. I hadn't ever seen the Kodaks there before. Luckily, and for no particular reason, I bought over 200 discs over a period of a few weeks. I guess I was thinking "Might as well get 'em while they're here..." Glad I did - will use for archiving the more important discs.

 

There are a LOT of mastering engineers who will take issue with what you just wrote...

 

Would you believe I never back up a project in progress unless I plan to suspend production for an extended period of time? If I know i'm going to do additional work after burning the CD-R, I just keep the original 32-bit files on the HD untill i'm satisfied that i'm DONE! Then the final 16-bit CD-R becomes my absolute master.

If I do just one song, I keep an adulterated restored copy of it on the HD for a possible comp. I temd to do just a slight bit of level-boosting with limiting on some comps I make.

I also tend to put restorations and 45 edits of singles on multiple CD-Rs so if anything goes south, I have backups up the ying-yang!

 

Some companies, like Verbatum, Yamaha, some TDK, some Maxell, and Kodak (when they made 'em) added a scratch-resistant coating to the play surface of the disc for better protection.

But, the production standards vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. When TDK contracted out to Ritek, they made them produce the blanks with their name to TDK's tolerances. Personally, I don't think that happened...

 

I'm talking about store-bought CD-R's. If the disc is not "defective" (and is good enough to record the data and reflective enough for the player you use it with), that's about all there is. The Sony disc will record the exact same data as the Kodak or Verbatim. If you record a DCC Gold onto a TDK or Mitsui CD-R, they will sound no different.

If you copy a computer program onto two different brands of discs, are they any differences in the program when you install them on a computer? Either the disc works or it doesn't. It doesn't change the "numbers." Music data on CD is no different - it's digital info.

How long they might last, as well as and how they stand up to handling and environmental extremes is another question. Here there are probably some differences, as I referred to.

 

To most CD players, a CDR is read suprisingly accurate. You'd be surprised at just how CDRs burned in an inexpensive burner (Most Lite-On drives, Sonys, HP/Philips drives, TDKs) compared to aluminum flake discs, and aluminum coated discs you find in your collection, record stores...

But if you take a CDR and try to recopy it, you'll find certain types and brands don't hold up in accurate stream rips. To me, that seperates the good and the not-so-good. This is when I've found that preserving the special things we cherish on CDR is best done on the GOOD CDRs.

I am never without normal grade CDRs. I also make sure that professional grade is nearby or obtainable.

When someone mentioned backup copies of some CDRs, that's also a very good idea.

 

And there are engineers who will disagree with this too! Why? Because a laser is burning "pits" into a chemical dye.

 

That's what I'd like to think too, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It's just like with burning CD-Rs in general - what spec out to be exact dubs of the original often don't sound like it to some people. Why is that? Jitter? Something else? Whatever the case, it seems as if there can be differences in sound even if the 1's and 0's are all correct on the disc.

Heck, a good friend of mine is as skeptical about all of this as anyone, and he's been able to hear differences between his various CD-R drives. All of those writing the exact same bits on the discs.

 

In reading and re-recording a CD-R, what you may have is variations in how well certain recorders and players deal with the various reflectivities of the different brands. Some people have quirky CD recorders that will record fine on Brand X and not on Brand Y. That's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to sound quality.

My point is that given you get a good "burn," there's no such thing, for example, as the "bright" sound of a Sony disc vs the "warmer" Mitsui discs. Or the "dynamite" bass response of Kodak Golds. Audio tape was a different story.

 

Oh yes, very true.

I have not heard a CDR that ever sounded different.

 

I'm not saying all CD-R drives or players are equal, either, lukpac. They're not (an $89 discount store off-brand recorder is not the same as a $250 Sony or Yamaha). And jitter can be an issue, but that's an equipment problem. Your friend's machines may make perfect copies or may not.

The issue here was sound quality on various brands of CD-R's. I'm sure if I took the DCC Elvis disc and recorded (on the same equipment), one on Sony, one on Kodak and one on Verbatim, your friend couldn't pick 'em out. The discs will each record what they're given by the equipment.

 

That's the thing - they *are* "perfect" copies, at least in the sense that a program like EAC can pull off the same data on all of them. Yet they still sound different on audio CD players...

That's what one would think, anyway.

 

Again, lukpac, what you're saying is that your friend's "copies" sound different. That's a different animal than saying one brand of CD-R has a different sound from another (which was the issue here).

 

I agree with Lukpac... I always can hear differences what I've burned onto CD-R or DVD-R against the original. Yes... it's a 1:1 copy, but not for my ears!!!

 

OK, but again, that's a different issue than whether one brand of disc sounds different from another.

 

I agree...Stability and longevity are the only differences between CDRs. One hears a difference if one wants to. I've tried tons of brands...all identical.

 

I refuse to believe that ANY CDRs sound different. 1s and 0s are 1s and 0s, not matter what they are being read off of. It is all about archival quality and that is it. Anyone who thinks there is a difference, wants to think there is a difference.

The only way there could be a difference in sound between the original and the copy is that if it is done on a computer and the tracks are ripped into wav files instead of directly copied. I think there is a conversion process from the .cda file to .wav, which may alter the sound. I am not sure how obvious it is.

 

Not really, but there are CRC checks you can do to the same file ripped from the original CD and then from the copy, and as long as you can do a secure stream rip, take both a secure copy and it's original and use whatever CRC file checking you want off the Internet and see if both are twins, to the last detail.

Just make sure you use DAO on software that doesn't burn any unneeded track seperation.

 

Well, a lot of people *can* hear differences between burners, burn speeds, etc. Even people who really believed that such differences were just audiophile nonsense. Sometimes things can sound different even if the 1s and 0s are the same. Is it because of jitter? Something else? I'm not sure we really know.

There's no such thing as a ".cda file" - audio is stored on CDs in a stream, not in files. From the CD-R FAQ:

 

The user has to be familiar with the software being used and the settings options. It's the same with mastering in a studio. If you know what your doing, you'll probably get the desired results.

 

I dunno, I believe one hears what one wants to hear...

 

I have FUJI discs that I burned at leasts 2 years ago that have been with me in the dj booth (meaning they are used and abused) and still play like they were brand new... You really have to experiment to find the discs that work best for you with your particular burner.