Chinese Democracy Song by Song Thread

Well, since the UYI thread went really well, and I am on a GnR fix, I'm gonna take a gamble and go for another GnR album that people always have thoughts on, Chinese Democracy, released in 2008 after years of anticipation and myth, to be released to indifference. But how is this album in retrospect? Well, let's see....
Here is some ground rules:
1 - Please limit your comments to the song at hand, or songs that have already been discussed. You can let us know what your favorite song on the album is when we get to it.
2 - Please support your stated opinions, simply because it leads much more fruitful discussion than "This rocks" or "This sucks".

Also, this will be every two or three days.

 

Great. CD has got some great songs, some oK ones and a couple of duds.

 

I was a fan of Robin Finck and had a great deal of admiration for his playing with NIN back in the 90s (and still to this day), so I was following GnR to see what would happen with him in the band. It was dicey there for a while, with lots of leaked unfinished versions floating around, lots of chatter in the press about Axl's antics, and the other band members keeping absolutely schtum about it all and no release date in sight...

Then they played those 2006 shows with Robin sporting that crazy beard and shaggy hair next to Axl's sewn-on dreads, their manager was going off at people in the press, the other guys in NIN started taking pot-shots at Robin for participating in the whole sideshow... it was a real drama that just kept getting weirder, and yet never quite climaxed, because it was really confusing (not to mention baffling just because, after all, what the hell was taking them so long to finish the record??)

Finally the album came out (thanks to... Dr. Pepper?) and Robin left GnR to return to NIN. On hearing the final release I was pleased with his contributions to the project, and felt he did a great job stepping in for Slash who was definitely not in Axl's good graces all those years

It made me happy to know when they finally reconciled that Slash was so respectful of the work Robin and the other players did, and they worked up some awesome versions of the Chinese Democracy material (even without Axl's prompting) for the Not In This Lifetime tour. Whether there is more to the story yet unwritten, who can say for sure? I'm a little bummed out that I missed the GnR tours with Robin but I do occasionally return to the album from time to time

 

That was fast! Cool, looking forward to it.

This album is definitely unfairly maligned. I wouldn’t say overall it’s genius but the best tracks deserve to be heard by a lot more people. And it certainly sounds really good for a modern rock album.

 

2 - Please support your stated opinions, simply because it leads much more fruitful discussion than "This rocks" or "This sucks".

 

It kind of gives me a headache, because it's dense and overloaded imo, with cluttered arrangements and loads of overdubs. Overworked. The NIN-ish production also dated it a bit before it even came out. But there are several good songs on there, looking forward to the discussion .

 

I think its underrated and its got some great songs on it the first 3 songs are my 3 faves and i think the current line up on tour play the songs very well too the title track is so good

 

I will be watching to see if this thread helps me like this LP any better, just an ok release.

 

I'd be interested to hear the earlier versions of the songs too

 

Chinese Democracy:

We open the album up with the title track and lead single, credited to Axl, Josh Freese, Dizzy Reed, Tommy Stinson, Robin Finck, Paul Cantpickaname, Caram Costanzo (who co produced this album), and engineer Eric Caudiex. The song was inspired by the movie Kundun and features arrangements by Axl, Cantpickaname, and Sean Bevan, one of the producers that was originally tied to this album.
We start with a weird little intro that actually does a nice job setting up a mood and vibe for the track, before the guitar riff kicks in at :45, backed by a simple but powerful (albeit processed) drumbeat, and I forgot to mention, this is the only track to not feature Brain on drums, this is all Frank Ferrer, and while I am no Frank Ferrer fan by any stretch of the imagination, his meat and potatoes playing works okay on here, and Axl, arriving with a scream at 1:24, and right when the band goes BAM at 1:27, Axl arrives and does a good job, although it sounds like his voice was touched up with effects, but nonetheless, he gives a solid delivery. The rhythm, while fairly basic, flows well, has a nice steady feel. And then we get Robin's solo at 3:06, and it's a pretty rippin solo, and then Buckethead does his weird little solo at 3:22, and between the two, close, I love both solos, but I might give the edge to Robin on this song, but either way, Axl made a lot of mistakes during the making of this album, but his choice of guitarists isn't one of them, that's easily one of this album's strong points.
Overall, Chinese Democracy is a decent tune, but nothing to really write home about, and I think it was a weak choice for a lead single.

 

Live at Rock in Rio 2001:

I like the bass more upfront, the off kilter guitar work is kind of cool, but man, Axl sounds really weak here.

 

Live in 2012(?):

I'm gonna be honest, this is a bad performance.

 

And with Slash and Duff:

Wow, seeing Slash bust out the BC Rich, ah, memories, right? By far the best of these three performances

 

Well, this thread will be interesting...

I dig this album. It's a little erratic, but less erratic than UYI. I got it on release day at Best Buy, CD and LP. Still have both. The girl I was seeing at the time laughed at the album when I showed it to her, and started making fun of it before she'd heard a single note - which said a lot more about her than it did about the album. She was out of the picture not long afterward.

Strangely (or not), that was many people's attitude in '08 - to prejudge this album. To me, this band is GN'R, just as much as the UYI lineup. I'm still waiting for my Dr. Pepper, but I don't like Dr. Pepper much anyway.

I saw them in Rosemont, IL in '02, on the aborted riot tour. My girlfriend at the time (different girlfriend from above) got three tickets, and we went with a buddy of mine. The girlfriend wasn't into it, got fed up, and said that she was leaving about 5 songs into the show. She'd wanted old school GN'R, and couldn't get over the whole Buckethead thing. I told her that I'd catch up with her later, as my buddy and I were having a great time with the sheer spectacle of it all. It was like seeing a phantom - a really awesome, angry, hard rocking phantom. Axl had returned from the nether! I suppose I was supposed to pull up stakes and go with her, but I chose seeing the show over the girlfriend. She was out of the picture not long afterward also.

See what you've cost me Axl? That's two girlfriends gone on your account!

I kid, I kid.

The versions of CD songs done on the 2016-17 GN'Reunion tour were highlights, IMHO.

Yesterday, I had "Oh My God" stuck in my head. It wasn't an altogether unpleasant experience. That song's grown on me, a lot, and the best tracks on Chinese Democracy keep sounding better over time. I think the album works best when it's not trying to be a "Guns N' Roses" record. I like the multi-layered dense production overall, but do find some parts over-polished. There are a couple of tracks on here that are among Axl's best work.

@Musicman1998 are we gonna also discuss the alternate versions/mixes/demos from the various leaks, in context?

 

We will.

 

Absolutely. That choice of single, and the lack of traditional promo probably sunk this album, commercially, more than anything else.

EDIT: for one thing, radio wasn’t gonna push a track that had such a long lead-in. For their purposes, the lengthy intro buildup, however cool to us, amounts to so much dead air. DOA on 2008 radio.

 

One of the writers Josh Freese (also a NIN alumnus, whom Brain and then Ferrer replaced as the drummer for this project) expressed his dislike for the final production of the title track, saying his original demo was just "a stupid punk riff" that worked better without all the layers on top

Respectfully, I disagree with that assessment and, on this track at least, the careful production assembly line that birthed this album came up with something unique, fresh and yet squarely in classicist territory for a pedigree rock band

The intro is a great example of using the full dynamic range to build tension and release. Amazing textures on display — ranging from brooding bass synths, delayed Axl-in-a-stompbox yelps, ringing sustained notes subtly imitating traditional Chinese instrumentation, mysterious sampled voices, icy plucked ostinato guitar — all preceding the bone-crunching "punk" riff's entrance, heightened with digital processing to give a deliberately robotic edge. Works brilliantly, even after a hundred listens, and it practically leapt out of the radio speakers when I first heard it

 

Do you remember where he said that? Cause all I know of him talking about Guns was when he was on the I'd Hit That podcast

 

I think it was in a NIN related fan chat, I'll have to dig it up

 

Can't believe I spent nine years - nine years! waiting for this album. But ten years later I still love most of it.

I will have some more detailed thoughts later.

 

It's fascinating album, for a variety of reasons...though far from a great one. My edited version is rather short.

As for the title track, it's never really done much for me. It's just a bit too...basic. Which is not what I expect from a Guns n' Roses song. Some good stuff on the way though...

 

I heard a version of the title track (not sure if it was live or what, been several years now) and it sounds like someone trying hard to sound like Nirvana, IMO.

Which is not a bad thing for Axl.

 

I think Axl tries getting either Butch Vug or Dave Grohl involved with this album at some point

 

Amazing album. Easily my favorite Guns album. If UYI was condensed down to 1 single album it might've been competition though. Prostitute is easily in my top 5 of GnR songs.

 

Hope to see you more in this thread then