Combine speakers using active crossover?

My Paradigm Studio 10 has very good details, but lack punch. My James Symphonic 10 has good punch, but not good in the details part.

Do you think it is worth it to get a active crossover to do this:

Front speakers preout to active crossover.

Active crossover high pass (200 Hz and up) to amp to Paradigm Studio 10.

Active crossover low pass (200 Hz and down) to amp to Symphonic 10.


Or should I simply get a new 3 ways speakers?

Thanks!

 

What exactly do you mean by "punch"? What are some music passage examples? If this is about bass and midbass, I'd tend to say to add a serious sub to the Paradigms, not try and use the woofer part of another fullrange.

The Paradigms are just bookshelf speakers, they can only "punch" so much. If you like their basic sound and detail then yeah a sub, or larger Paradigms.

It also depends if your amp can properly connect a subwoofer i.e. accommodate a highpass crossover to reduce distortion and increase headroom.

 

Yeah, punch is more about the mid bass I supposed. I do have a sub crossover at 100 Hz. I have used big twin 15" woofers sub and also the JL Audio d110.

When I switch out the big speakers (James Symphonic 10) with the Paradigm this morning, definitely some punch is missing, even with a sub connected.

Kind of think about it, may be what I want is something more between 100 to 300 Hz?

I am trying to be frugal and try to reuse if possible. Thus, now I am thinking about Paradigm for 300 Hz and up, James Symphonic between 100 to 300 Hz, and a big sub 100 Hz and below. : )

 

Just get some good actives; your suggestion is interesting, but maybe not the most practical setup!

 

Yeah, it is possible, but it means one more layer of AD/DA conversion, which may be detrimental to audio signals.

But, buying good actives would mean wasting my Parasound amps. I am trying to be frugal here. : )
I have 2 Parasound and 1 Emotiva amp, so I do have some flexibility to play with active crossover.

Also, my preamp is Pioneer Receiver, which has full band phase control feature. Thus, I think it can get the phase of Paradigm and James speakers right.

 

I understand what you are trying to achieve. I'm also guessing that "frugal" is a key word here. You could just go out and buy better speakers, or you could just spend a few dollars and get a crossover and experiment and learn something more about audio. Go to a pro audio shop and search out a two-way crossover. Might be just slightly more than a hunnerd bucks. Buy used if you can. Most likely will have balanced 1/4" TRS connectors, so you'll have to spend a bit more for adapters.

I'm guessing you'll end up with a crossover point greater than 200Hz. The nice thing about electronic crossovers is that you can just twiddle the knob and hear the effect of crossover points at different frequencies. Play around a lot with it, you can learn tons this way. Using two full-range speaker systems in a bi-amp system like this is very safe. In other words, you can't screw up your speakers too easily. Again, spend time playing around with it. Just don't declare victory after turning the knobs for 15 minutes. Do this for days and weeks. It is also good to have a constant reference to compare against, just to make sure you don't kid yourself into going after a really bizarre sound.

In fact, just this past Hurricane Harvey weekend I was contemplating doing just exactly what you described. I recently bought a pair of Original Larger Advents, same speakers I grew up with back in the early 70s. I like the bass, but the mids and highs are nothing to write home about, and in my current opinion, nothing I want to be subjected to for too much time. I was thinking of using a crossover to match them up with a pair of Magnepan MG-Is. I like the Magnepan's mid and treble, but not the bass so much. I ended up just listening to music instead of messing around with gear. The point is, I get what you're trying to do. I suggest do it. It probably won't become your long-term system, but it most likely will be a lot of fun.

 

Thank you very much for your reply and suggestions.

I have not been using my Paradigm for a while (used in another setup) in my main system.

With other class D amps and my Emotiva amp, my Paradigm always sounded kind of bright and a bit fatiguing when turn up a bit loud. Thus, I went with less details, larger speakers.

What prompted me to try out Paradigm again was due to a new electronic CD I got from a friend over last weekend. The large speakers simply could not do the CD justice.

What surprised me this week is that Paradigm is pairing really well with my newly acquired Parasound A23. No harshness or fatiguing. I plan to listen to it more this week before deciding if I want to add in the bass of the larger speakers. Like you said, want to enjoy the music for a while first before tweaking again.
Have a great weekend!

 

You definitely have a bass gap with the paradigm's 5-1/2" woofers even with the subwoofer crossing higher than usual. Subs really don't sound that great for punch above 80 Hz or so- but I would wonder if your sub integration is optimized for starters.
I have often wondered why someone doesn't make a "woofer" box, a decent active woofer (say two 8" woofers- not subwoofers- in a stand alone box)
To your original question- if you have the amps lying around you could add a mini DSP (very cool, very reasonable active crossover) between your pre-amp and the speaker's power amps and I bet you could tune it to achieve what you are looking for-
basically sub to James ~ 65 to 80Hz Hz, James to Paradigm ~ no higher than 200 to 250Hz.

 

Thanks for the suggestion!

I got my Pioneer to do lots of work for me, so sub integration so far pretty good even at 100 hz!

Yeah, I have looked at minidsp just this week. Which model would you recommend?

 

No problem, hope it works out for you.
Assuming that you have (4) channels to drive- bass/ midrange treble for each L & R speaker get the mini DSP 2X4. You can order it from Madisound.
Madisound Speaker Components

 

I see. Thanks!

I am also curious about those I could manually adjust instead of using computer, like those pro version sold in Guitar Center. I wonder which would be more suitable for high end audio.

 

Mini DSP is used on some high end boutique speakers. It works very well and is extremely powerful despite the low price.

 

I have yet to make a purchase. Too many house projects going on....

I thought more about it and I think I may need a three ways crossover instead. Other than the cross between two speakers at around 200 to 300 Hz, I want steeper crossover on the low side also (like 24db sloop around 80 Hz) between the large speakers and the subwoofer.

 

you can get the mini dsp 2 X 8 and just not utilize the extra two channels.

 

Sell 2 pair of speaks and buy one pair that tickles your fancy

 

Yeah, I thought about that too.... May be trade for a full range Paradigm Studio 100. Keeping my options open for now. Thanks!

 

If you could try it for free it'd be one thing, but I wouldn't spend a dime on a Frankenspeaker experiment. Different manufacturers , different designers, different responses. This is destined to fail. Just get a new 3way that ticks all your boxes.

 

Yeah, to do what I like to do, it would cost minimum of $200 for external crossover using the pro type crossover. Minidsp 4x8 in kit form without a box would cost $275.

But, I do wonder from 80hz to ~300 Hz, is there really that big of difference between speakers.....

 

Here's a quick and dirty trick that many will balk at:

Use the Paradigms as front speakers.
Wire the James Symphonics behind the couch or sofa or whatever, facing the front.

Your amp has to have outputs for 2 pair of speakers.

Trust me and try it.

 

Interesting idea! I do have KEF LS50 as the surround. I am playing back stereo using extended stereo mode (4.1).

I will swap and see how it goes!
Unfortunately, I can't really move my James speakers yet as I hurt something (nerves, muscle, tendons?) on my right hand and can't really put much weight on it. James speaker is about 75lbs each.

 

I'm confused.
You're working with just a surround setup?

 

I use Pioneer receiver as preamp to do 4.1 Extended Stereo playback. I have been doing it for a while. I used to use the James speakers as front, but it is not details enough for electronica style music, thus recently switched back to using Paradigm as the fronts. You can check out my information section for more details of my setup.

BTW, I have another home theatre setup and the James speakers are currently the surround speakers in that setup.

 

I might be totally wrong. If you're already using them in a 4.1 configuration, maybe you won't mind it, and you might really like it. If that's the case, the $200 or $275 would be worth it.

Just measure them using REW and you'll see the difference.

 

Thanks! I never thought about using the bigger speakers as the surround for my 4.1 setup, as suggested by "HIFI guy 008". I will give that a try first. Then next step is the active crossover if that does not work out well.

 

Ok. I'm even more confused now.

If your amp can do it, hook up the James' in the rear (not as rear channels) and the Paradigms in the front.