Digital – How Good, And How Much Does It Improve With More $$$?

Hi, coming back to audiophilia after 25 years, so I don't really know the modern scene. But I'm getting back into it. The 'vinyl revival' has had a lot to do with that. =]

So I'm an analog guy, primarily. But that doesn't mean I don't want to know what's going on on the digital side of the fence.

'Back in the day', it seemed like analog VASTLY improved as you moved up the price scale... digital, not so much. There was the allegedly wonderful Meridian Pro CD player back then, but for the most part, seemed like 'a CD player was a CD player was a CD player'... they largely sounded all the same.

Is that more or less still the case, or do expensive CD players and DACs bring big improvements over good but run-of-the-mill CD players w/integrated DACs (like Onkyo)?

And if so, is that level of improvement anywhere near comparable to what you get by moving up the price scale on the analog side??

I remember reading something about a company called Theta Data putting a run-of-the-mill Phillips player in a fancy box, charging $5K for it, and actually getting rave reviews from the big Hi-Fi magazines, lol. I'd imagine they wouldn't have been able to get away with that if the differences between cheap and mainstream digital players were huge/immediately noticeable, but perhaps I'm reading too much into that one incident.

Just wondering how things are *now*. Oh, and do CD players sound any better than they did in the '80s?

I know digital recording techniques have likely improved since then ('mistakes were made')... but back then, a good $500 table ($1000-ish nowadays) like a Systemdek IIX (now Audio Note TT1) or a Rega Planar 3, even with an inexpensive cart, would sound about as good or a bit better than CD, and a really good 'table like a Linn Sondek or a GyroDec would just pulverize CD.

Still the case, or no? I assume both CD players and analog front-ends have improved since the '80s, but by how much for each?

 

Good dacs aren't cheap, but when you have a listen in a good balanced system, digital can sound great. And second hand cd's are $3. But yes they have improved big time.

 

There was something comforting in the past that the better a turntable was built the better it sounded.And normally as a result the more you payed the better sound quality and reliability you got.With CD playback that changed.A cheap sony discman could sound as good as their 2k flagship model.
Most current sub £500 CD players sound superb nowadays.As do most sub £300 portable DAC's.
If you want great sounding digital on a budget.Go for any old Philips player with the TDA1541/1543 dac's..Or Sony players with 1-bit pulse dac's from the 80's & 90's..You can pick them up for about £30-£60 on ebay.Combine with second-hand CD's and it a very cheap way to listen to high quality sound.

DAC database
The complete d/a DAC converter list - DutchAudioClassics.nl

 

I've got several nice CD players:
Sansui CDX711 1989
Pioneer Elite PD-91 1990
JVC XL-Z1010 1991
Yamaha CD-C600BL 5-Disc 2009
Onkyo C-7030 CD player 2011

Although the top 3 of the above players only span a 3 year era 1989-1991
they all sound fairly different as each one has very different design/build/DAC's as
things were happening fast for CD players in a short time span back then.
I like all of them & they all were top of their line players at the time.
And all of them still work fine and sound very good.

Transports:
Pioneer Elite PD-S95 transport
This was Pioneer's only tour de force CD transport only unit.

DACS:
Teac UD-H01 DAC 2015
This is a really nice DAC that I caught on sale for $189.
Great sound and a really killer headphone sound too.

Musical Fidelity late model M1 DAC 2010
A best ever offering from Musical Fidelity, an amazing sounding unit

The M1 DAC is with the Pioneer Elite PD-S95 transport
The Teac UD-H01 DAC is with the Onkyo C7030 CD player

Again I like both DAC's the late model build Musical Fidelity DAC is the best of all my CD players DACs.
CD Recorder:
HHB Burn It CDR 830 2001
A great redbook CD burner, if one uses it to it's fully capabilities the results are astonishing.
At some point though you hit the wall of extracting the best sound out of what a CD's digital music has to offer. And at that point any more money invested basically ends up providing infinitesimally improved sonic returns for your dollar.

 

If you want to top and forget any turntable/cart in existence, go for dCS Puccini combo.
What this combo is capable of, with hi-res /SACD digital, is absolutely mind blowing.

Regards

 

I used to think the same, but then I heard the ARC Ref CD9 and had to reconsider. DACs have made huge strides and I now listen to much more digital than analog. Roon has been a huge impact as well.

 

Are you looking to buy new digital components? If so, what is your budget? What are you using now? Do you need a CD player or just something to play digital files or streaming? What is your source? Your own CDs/CD rips, hi-rez of some sort, or a streaming service?

 

The best I've heard from digital was from DACs which had very simple digital conversion circuits with a lot of attention and expense put into the analogue circuitry. One example would be Audio Note DACs. The digital part of the DACs is the for much of the line up, but, as you go up the ladder, the analogue amplification becomes quite elaborate and expensive to execute--lots of transformers and chokes, silver wiring, etc. The sound of their digital gear is very much like good analogue.

I've heard the same sort of sound from other DACs that employ tubes in the analogue stage, such as the hand-built DACs from Aldo D'Urso, of Italy. I have not yet tried an Aldo DAC in my own system, but, I've heard it in two systems where I compared it to the Audio Note DAC 5, in one system it was a tough call, the DAC 5 sounded a touch better in the upper range, the Aldo DAC better in the midrange, but in another system, the Aldo DAC clearly sounded better for my taste. I think that at the top end, system/taste matching is what makes the difference, not some inherent superiority of a particular component.

In non-tube gear, I've heard pretty nice systems with the big DCS stack. I have not heard it in my own system, and fortunately, I don't have enough room so I am certainly not even slightly tempted. It also seems a bit elaborate to set up and use. I like things a bit more simple, so I went with a Naim NDS server system (built-in DAC) and NAS storage. I don't know how this compares with other digital setups because I haven't made any comparisons. I get nice sound and it is easy to use so that gets me where I want to be.

 

A good modern CD player will blow you outta yer socks, even via analog outputs. You'll love your CDs as much as your vinyl. But never ditch one format for the other. Have both. I'm glad I never ditched my vinyl, because if initially impressed by CDs (started buying early 90s) I immediately thought both sounds were different, with pros and cons.

 

Recently upgraded transport, DAC, and added in an I Purifier.

Can say my digital now surpasses my vinyl setup, which has ruled for quite awhile now. So for me, more money can lead down the path to improvement and enlightenment!

Good choices are needed however.

 

How do you like it?

How does it compare with the other CD players you have, or heard?

 

Problem is it only plays Redbooks and not Sacd's....at a $12k-13k LIST it should play SACD as well. Might as well get a Krell Cipher which has bested the "9" in shootouts and plays SACD as well. You can get a Cipher for around 7-8K or you can step up to a K-01x for 15K.

Another one to look at is SIMAUDIO 750....its UGLY as sin..but you can get a nice used one in the 4-5K Range...just hide it behind something

 

I haven't heard the Krell, and the the CD9 is unobtanium for me, but it did open my eyes to what is possible from redbook. All my cd's (and SACD's) are immediately ripped and sent to my NAS. My Oppo 105 is the limit of my range for a spinner, though I do plan on moving to a dedicated DAC to feed the uRendu through, maybe a Yggy or Gumby.

 

Great questions. Basically what I'm doing right now is trying to determine if I should even INVEST in a great CD player/DAC and start building a CD library. And that is pretty much dependent on what CD sound quality is like nowadays vs high-end analog.

Back when I was last an audiophile ('80s/early '90s), the high end turntables spanked CD players pretty hard. Now I'm to understand (from many of the replies) that the gap has narrowed a great deal, or is even gone? If so, then CD players/DACs have improved considerably more than analog has in the intervening time. True? False?

But even if I don't wind up with a CD player (and I may), I would still want something that could stream and/or play my iTunes music library.

Basically, I think my music strategy would be as follows... if I

Want to discover music – Stream it
Like a piece of music – Buy it on mp3/digital download
Love a piece of music – Buy it on vinyl.

But this strategy assumes that higher-end analog is better than higher-end digital.

It was 25 years ago. I don't know to what extent is now, if at all.

Oh, and SACD and Blu-Ray audio are nearly dead formats, yes or no? I assume when thinking about digitial discs, I have to be thinking Redbook CDs, yes? Any answers much appreciated.

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Yes. Digital has equated analog long ago. And for much less money. That is not to say you can enjoy both worlds.

 

There is so much music only offered in digital format (virtually all new classical releases, for example) that a good digital setup is a must. To me it is just an academic argument as to whether digital or vinyl is ultimately better; if you have a collection of both, you need decent gear to reproduce both. There are a LOT of digital reissues of older popular music/rock that are grossly inferior to the original LPs; it is NOT a matter of format superiority, but one of either indifference in the transfer or perhaps the original tapes have deteriorated. So, to get the very best out of certain older recordings you do need a good vinyl set up. But, there are also lots of first rate digital reissues that sound very good to me, regardless of whether it is better, the same or slightly inferior to, the original release, and so many good recordings that are only available in digital formats.

Likewise, current releases of vinyl, either reissues or new music on vinyl, are all over the map in terms of quality. A lot of original pressings, particularly from the 1970-1990 period, were pretty low quality, so it might be the case that digital reissues are superior (e.g., digital reissues of many DG classical recordings sound better than the original vinyl).

It is simply wrong to assume one format is better than the other, it depends much more on the specifics of each particular recording.
Unless your musical interest is limited to music issued in the pre-digital era, and you are willing to track down the best quality versions of old discs, I cannot see a reason to not consider making good digital replay a top priority. It is irrelevant as to which format is, under ideal conditions, superior to the other. Given the range of digital musical offerings, I can understand someone being exclusively digital, it is the exclusively analogue crowd that is strange to me.

 

I don't own any of the uber expensive DACs, but I did own one that was Stereophile Class A rated. I didn't notice much difference between it and my $100 Chinese Topping DAC. They sounded similar enough that I probably wouldn't be able to pick them out in a blind test.

My current CD player sounds slightly better than my old early 90s Technics MASH unit. I think differences in digital products can be perceptible, but nothing like the differences between speakers or amps.

IME, one must spend a lot, >$2k..ish on an analog rig to meet or surpass the performance of a cheap digital set up. I prefer analog but that's because I'm a lunatic. Your best off allocating most of your budget toward speakers. I'd rather have $4k speakers and a $300 digital source, than $2k speakers and a $2k digital source.

 

Do you already have a bunch of CDs? If not, would you be open to buying a good amount of them? If the answer is no I would forget about a disc spinner and focus on getting a DAC that will meet your needs. Lots of choices out there.

Re: vinyl, in general I think you have to spend a lot more money to get a turntable based system that approaches what a digital setup can do for less money. CDs and digital music can sound great with very little effort.

Besides the vinyl playback hardware, you'll need a record cleaning system, preferably a record cleaning machine if you are serious. You will also need to invest a lot of time hunting down old records and trying to return new ones when you figure out new records don't always sound that great because plants are overloaded and quality is dropping like a rock.

Be prepared to put in time and be frustrated when that supposed NM 1st pressing you've been lusting after shows up in the mail from Discogs/eBay in much poorer condition than advertised. Don't get me wrong, I love vinyl but it has definitely tested my patience at times.

Do you already have a bunch of records, or are you just starting over from scratch? If the first one, investing in vinyl playback makes sense. If not, now is a terrible time to be getting into records from scratch. Prices are inflated and there is a lot of turd polishing that goes on.

Don't say I didn't warn you. Vinyl is a deep rabbit hole.

 

SACD is on life support from specialty audiophile labels and limited Japanese releases. Otherwise it would be dead. You could probably say the same thing about Blu-Ray Audio. For many people the appeal of these is multi-channel mixes in 5.1 or whatever. I never had a multi-channel system so I generally don't buy them unless they are hybrid discs and I really "need" them for some reason.

Streaming and lossless downloads have taken over the audiophile digital world for the most part these days. That's not to say that many don't enjoy CDs. I do, but I already have a large collection of thousands of CDs and I'm not starting from scratch. I still buy new and used CDs also.

 

I think I may have said this before, but for me especially with compact discs I've found it easier just to try and track down the best mastering's of said title's that suit my tastes. The issues I'm having with some of my transports is that they seem to be more resolving, almost 'too perfect' Kind of how I felt with one of those Gabriel 2x45 issues. I actually just put my old Oppo BDP-80 back into the cd player mix (been years since I used it), utilizing it's DAC. Noticed it had what some would call a high frequency roll-off possibly. I actually enjoyed the way it took the edge off of some older mastering's.

 

That Sansui has very good sound, it still impresses me near 30 years later.

 

Still undecided on CD, and no, I don't have very many of them. But I do think streaming is in my future, regardless of whether CD or vinyl is part of my system alongside it.

So it seems I need a 'music server' or 'appliance' and a good DAC, yes? I wish to play my iTunes library, do downloads, and do streaming. What to get at a reasonable price point that does all that, would you say?

Others may chime in if they feel like. I know my analog pretty well, but being away 25 years, the dload/streaming side is a whole new ballgame to me, aside from using it on my laptop.

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A music streamer is not necessary though it may be nice to have. I am thinking about getting one eventually, but I may just decide to DIY my own or have a tower computer built specifically for music purposes. Right now I use a secondary laptop with a USB cable hooked to my standalone DAC, which is hooked up to my stereo system.

Out of the box music streamers can run around $500 for entry-level-ish models from Auralic and Bluesound, for example. These have DACs built in to them.

In this case if you were streaming Tidal or Spotify, you would simply run a LAN cable from your wifi router to the streamer unit. There are streamer units that cost a lot more money too, but IMHO you'd be better off building a custom tower PC like the "Computer Audiophile" folks do and running that to the standalone DAC of your choice. If you just want to try this out with not a lot of cash outlay for a streamer or purpose built PC you could look at something like HiFiBerry and hook that up to whatever computer you already have and your existing stereo or headphone rig.

Eventually I will have all my CDs backed up on NAS running to either a purpose built PC or streamer. That's a long term project though. Beside the equipment which costs $, I have over 4,000 CDs that need to be ripped.

 

The OP bailed on this thread, but has some great suggestions for the Pi, If my SBTouch ever failed I'd probably go this route-
Any way to make Raspberry Pi sound better?

 

Excellent points. And a good argument for being fully 'ominvorous', and having vinyl and CD and streaming. Hmm...

The only counterargument that comes to mind is expense, i.e. it's harder to afford very nice equipment in all areas of front-end simultaneously. But the digital side doesn't seem all that expensive, relatively-speaking.

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