Direct-Drive or Belt-Drive - What Do You Use?

Not only is my Denon DP-23F seventeen years old, my Grade ZF3+ cartridge is also from 1988! I had to replace the stylus once.

What would be a good cartridge to replace it with? I have no idea how long a cartridge is supposed to last. . . Thanks, Eric

My 100th post!!!

 

Nottingham Spacedeck, belt drive. Dead on pitch accuracy, you don't need a pitch adjustment.

Re: the belt vs direct driven debate for TTs, I liken it in many ways to the tubes vs solid state mudslinging for amplification. Some people prefer one over the other based on careful listening comparisons, and in other cases some just have an innate preference/bias/liking for one approach.

I admit for me with belt drive tables it's a little of both...I have found good ones to be more quiet than DDs and have dead on pitch accuracy, so to me the sonics are a little better. But I also find the design on the Spacedeck with the continuously running low torque motor requiring a manual shove of the table to get it started just inherently appealing (a logical way of minimizing motor vibration), and I just like the way many belt tables look (superficial but that type of psychological thing is NOT to be underestimated in how you respond to a particular piece of gear IMHO).

 

Which tonearm do you have, Dr J? I just checked Nottingham out, and yes, they do look cool (and I am someone to whom that matters). Plus, it's one of the few turntable brands I can check out in person here in Pgh.

 

Cartriges can last 10-20 years, but the stylus should be replaced after every 700 or so hours of play.

 

Hi Jay - I use the Nottingham tonearm (stock) and I've been thrilled with it myself. I know some feel the need to upgrade to other tonearms for some reason but the sonics are so good right now that I'm not planning to do that, at least not for a long long time.

I can't say enough good things about the Spacedeck. You will read many raves about the inky black background you get with this table and that is so true - unbelievably quiet background. While it won't turn a really trashed record into anything listenable, records I used to be somewhat unhappy with (sort of weak "VG+" types where I had planned to upgrade eventually) I now find to be just wonderful. And mint LPs? Fuggedabout it...we're talking CD quiet but with typically much better sonics otherwise. I'm sure part of this is the Sumiko Blackbird cart but the incredible mass of the table has to have something to do with it.

Also I'm really not a "tweaker" and this table appeals to me in that regard - once it's set up properly you just don't have to worry about anything. I'm into simple as my time to listen is very limited as it is with a 2 year old and my job - I don't want to waste time tweaking stuff.

Anyway not trying to "sell" anything, just very very happy. Definitely check it out, I know there's "better" tables but for the price it's hard to beat.

 

Much of the wear and tear on cartridge bodies can also be done by NOT using them for a while (better to rust out than to fade away...). Suspensions can dry out and crack, as well as the body of the cartridge. If you put a turntable in storage for ten years or so, you can bet that the cartridge will not be in its prime. The good news is that most of the better cartridges out there can be completely restored back to their original specs by places like Stanalog Imports, who send many of these cartridges directly to A.J. van den Hul himself for repair. The bad news is that this costs as much as buying a pretty decent cartridge new. It makes sense for Koetsus and van den Huls, and even more so for long-discontinued classics like Fidelity Researches and Kisekis.

 

That is not a true statement, in fact, it is just the opposite. Suspension will wear out long before the stylus. If 700 hours was the rule, I'd be replacing a cart. every year and most carts. don't allow for stylus replacement, my Shure being the exception.

 

I've also seen a huge range between certain types of stylii. One manufacturer recommended 500 hours, which kinda sucks, because 500 hours is nothing, really. I've seen another who claimed they could get 5000 hours out of their needle. My experience is that the majority fall about halfway between the two figures, about 2000-2500 hours or so. I usually find that I need to buy a new stylus about every five years or so, but I get upgrade fever, so I usually just get a new cartridge.

 

Really? I've never heard of this. Which brands?

 

I'm talking about buying and replacing styli in your home. Obviously you can send any cartridge to the manufacturer to have it re-tipped, sorry if I confused you.

 

I actually own both kinds, but I voted for DD since, in my case my DD table (a Technics SL-DD22) sounds better than my BD (a Sony PS-LX350H). If anyone here is considering the Sony as an option into BD territory (I really doubt it, but you never know), I would advise against it. The arm is really not very good, I'm discovering, and the motor is so noisy I can hear it across the room (fortunately that sound is isolated from the platter by the belt, but still it's a pretty dull sounding machine). If I had discovered this forum when I was shopping for a new TT back then it would have saved me some grief, as I would have probably saved up for something much better. Which I'm currently doing, BTW. I'm kind of leaning towards the Thorens TT's since I've read quite a few posts on this forum that are favorable of this brand, and there don't seem to be issues concerning build quality as with some other tables in the "entry level" price range.

 

In addition to Shure, please add: Grado, Audio Technica, Stanton, several Ortophon's, even the Goldring Elan and no less than 3 Sumiko models (Oyster, Black Pearl and Pearl) have user-replaceable styli, and those were just the ones I counted at the Needle Doctor. To be sure, most of these carts are budget-priced and in no way high-end designs (and most, if not all high end designs require the factory replacement of styli), but since Audio-Technica still out-produces all other cartridge manufacturers (I haven't checked the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if they exceeded the output of all other manufacturers, combined), just by sheer numbers it would be more correct to say that most carts allow for stylus replacement. BTW, that has always been the argument in favor of user-replaceable styli: the suspension is usually part of the stylus assembly, so when you replace the stylus, you replace the suspension, too. However, there are performance trade-offs some of which are quite significant.

Sorry for the digression, now back to the thread.

 

As a general rule of thumb, MM's usually allow user replacement of the stylus, MC's do not.

 

When I was getting back into vinyl, about three years back, I decided to try two turntables and do a listening test head-to-head to decide which one to keep. The two I picked:

1) Technics SL-1200 (DD)
2) Music Hall MMF-7 (BD)

I really expected that the SL-1200 would be fine for my needs. The manufacturing quality of the Technics FAR exceeded the MMF-7. However, when it came to the sound (tested both with the same Grado cartridge), there simply was no comparison. The Technics sounded dull, flat and lifeless. The MMF-7 had the breath of life in it's sound - full and sweet. I did NOT expect this. I certainly did not want to spend TWICE the amount of money for the MMF-7 ($400.00 vs $800.00 - without cart), but I did. I boxed up the SL-1200 and sent it back. I am still enjoying my MMF-7 to this day. Just my $.02.

Kevin

 

When I replaced the stylus--possibly ten years ago--it was because I was getting no sound from my turntable. I figured there was a problem with my Grado ZF3 cartridge. I brought it back to where I purchased it and they looked at the stylus under a jeweler's loop. Lo and behold, the needle was MISSING! A new plug in stylus did the job.

I am thinking about upgrading to a Sumiko Bluepoint. Would that be overkill for my Denon DP-23F--would I be able to hear a difference with my admittedly mid-fi direct drive fully automatic turntable? If I remember correctly, I paid under $80.00 for the Grado ZF3 back in 1988, so I do want something of higher quality. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!!

 

Regas are one of the notable exceptions, MMs that do not have user-replaceable stylii.

 

Not all Grado cartridges have user-replaceable styli. Of all Grado cartridges, only the Prestige Series line of cartridges have user-replaceable styli. The wooden-bodied Reference and Statement series lines of Grado cartridges must be retipped at the factory. (And both the Prestige and Reference lines are considered high-output MMs, while the Statement line is considered a low-output MM.)

 

Quite true, and I didn't mean to infer that the entire line of cartridges made by a company were all the same; I did state that high-end cartridges did not allow the user to replace the stylus. My point was that many cartridge manufacturers offered carts with user-replaceable styli, not just Shure.

 

I've been using a DD Yamaha YP-D8 for 25 years.... except for once breaking the fishing line that linked the anti-skate, it's been trouble-free.

 

I would be worried about damage to records from a ten year old even if little used stylus. The rubber mounting tends to stiffen and the tracking ability is greatly reduced after 3 to 5 years. You may find that a new stylus reveals groove damage.

 

Even though I don't use my 1200 anymore, I have to disagree but with qualifications. The stock table certainly leaves a whole lot to be desired. However, there are some incredible upgrades that will turn a 1200 into a world-class performer at a fraction of the cost of many others out there. And pitch/wow variation even with off center pressings is a non-issue entirely, since this table has more torque and certainly a platter substantial enough to provide stability/momentum through some challenging pressings. I only hold onto mine because I know what they're capable of (see Origin Live's upgrade arms for starters). Versatility regarding speed control (another upgrade, and inexpensive) is easy to achieve as well, since 78s are becoming a factor in my collection. Unless I'm mistaken, this would be a serious hassle to achieve with a belt-driven table since the market is just not large enough to justify the R&D for inexpensive and practical solutions that meet our needs. The 1200 is a vastly underrated bargain once properly equipped, IMHO.

 

I listen for these things to a fault, and never heard any motor noise on mine.

 

Mike V,
We had this debate a while back in a another thread, and it went nowhere. Basically, the conclusion seemed to be that belt drive tables were Things of Beauty which deliver all the sweet yummy goodness that vinyl has to offer, while direct drive tables are noisy, unreliable, and unappealing machines suitable only for DJs and sheep. At that point I gave up the debate and went back to simply enjoying my DD table...

 

Hi Mike,

This is the thread my learned friend bonjo is referring to!

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=55344&highlight=belt+drive

I am glad he finally saw the light though:
"Basically, the conclusion seemed to be that belt drive tables were Things of Beauty which deliver all the sweet yummy goodness that vinyl has to offer, while direct drive tables are noisy, unreliable, and unappealing machines suitable only for DJs and sheep"

I am also glad that we arrived at the correct conclusion! He he...

I am certain bonjo still has some bruises left over from that thread. I certainly still do. Still it had been years since anyone gave me a black eye

I have decided to give up boxing after checking out his left hook though

 

Wow, when I have an hour to kill, I'll read the whole thread. FWIW, I'm using a belt-drive table now, but switch between that & various others, including DD (Yamaha PX-3 was a favorite). I love these discussions - as a spectator - but nothing tops the DVD-A vs SACD blood-brawls a few years back. Those were just ugly all around.

I have no further comment, since the sparring days are behind me. Carry on!