Discussion: SH Forum Influence on "The Industry"

Folks,

I'd like to start a discussion about how we - our collective forum voice - have influence on the music industry.

Of course we have Steve's ear! In addition it's becoming apparent people in the industry - including many "higher up decision making folks" - are dropping in to read the forum. It would be a shame if they get here and immediately leave because they feel that they are being personally attacked.

You know, I'd be thrilled if Jon Astly or Peter Mew popped in to say "hi". We'd have a chance to see what's in their head, and they'd get an earful (I'm sure!) of what we - the hard-core reissue buying public - care about in a remaster.

What I'm proposing is that we all start to make a conscience effort to treat everyone in the remastering business with politeness and respect. We could still, of course, be candid as we wish about criticizing their work, but I'm suggesting that we stop the bashing of the individual behind the controls.

Might this do us any good? Would our voice be strengthened by us all being more "professional"?

This issue won't make or break our forum, but it sure would be a nice plus, wouldn't it?

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Jeff

 

I don't think it would work.

Jon Astley has heard a LOT more than an "earful" of issues about the stuff he does. Has he gotten any better? Nope, in fact most would agree he has been getting *worse*. Heck, this is a guy who told fans to listen to the old versions of stuff if they didn't like his work. How's that for taking criticism?

I mean, it seems Peter Mew pretty clearly likes noise reduction. Do you think he's going to stop using it because the majority of people here don't like it? It would be cool if he did, but I just don't see that happening.

Luke "Mr. Cynical" Pacholski

 

Honestly Jeff, I don't think they would find hostility here. Yes, we've said nasty things, but like you said, we don't know how or why they do things, and it may be for reasons we have NOT found out yet. I don't think we dislike someone personally just for the way they master. Maybe we'll all just get along!

 

The sad truth is, the "majority of people here" are considered a tiny lunatic fringe by the record labels. They don't think our dollars really amount to all that much. If our dollars DID make a difference, MFSL and DCC would still be in business (I'm playing devil's advocate here).

 

I think you make a valid point about showing respect to industry people, be they mastering engineers or whatever. I would say constructive criticism is the best approach.

I feel that people here reserve (or perhaps deserve) the right to point out flaws and things that they do not like about a particular recording or remaster.

I think that striking a proper balance between constructive criticism and showing respect to the people in the industry who make it all happen will ensure that the board is taken seriously and our wishes and passion for great sounding music are still top priority and remain intact.

So we should give credit where credit is due, and criticism when and where it is due also. If a remaster is screwed up, it is screwed up and someone has to be held accountable.

All in a civilized manner though. I'm sure that mastering engineers et al like to hear what's good and what's not so good about their work. Who doesn't enjoy reading a great report card?

If we sound professional, knowledgable and eager to listen and learn, we will be taken seriously.

Personally, I am willing to do away with most things negative and replace with positive/constructive, for the betterment of the forum. But I don't think we ought to pull any punches in the form of keeping quiet so as not to ruffle any feathers.

 

Hi Jeff,

IMO, most people do not find a difference between criticism of their work and themselves. This is a mighty fine line that is very difficult to accomplish on the internet or even in person.

I hope that this idea/thread is not politically motivated. I hate politics!

-Jeffrey

 

Hi,

No wonder I LOVE it here!

-Jeffrey

 

Can you criticize their work without criticizing the individual. Especially if you say that in your opinion all or most of their work has been unacceptable? I agree though that perhaps we could be more professional about it, as in not saying that someone really sucks. But on the other hand should we not be allowed to express our feelings about them.

 

HZ - I think that is good advice all around ... not just to be applied to 'remastering people'. That said .. I feel that since the 'politics & religion' hiatus, everyone has made more of an effort to be polite and respectful to one another ... and that is good.

 

I agree Jeff,

I am a strong proponent of using our collective voice to influence the industry. So a certain amount of diplomacy is in order.
Look how Bill Inglot was handled in a recent Rhino thread - some of the negativity was turned around into a positive appreciation of his contributions. Everyone here has carte blanche to be critical of mastering jobs but let's not sink into personal attacks. I for one am guilty of abusing the usual suspects but I will stop.

It would be in Jon Astley's and Peter Mew's best interests to join the forum as we do not attack fellow members!

 

John,

The benefits can be many, both direct and indirect to everyone on the forum. Anyone who has been to the HTF has seen the benefits of adopting "professionalism" rules. The members have regular online chats with studio reps about upcoming releases as well as the status of various projects or individual DVDs. There are studio visits where free merchandise is handed out and a lot of other cool benefits that are given to forum members.

We want the best for our forum members too, and this is a direction that we've been considering for some time.

 

How have we been too critical of Jon Astley's work?

His work with The Who's catalog is riddled with problems, some pretty major. Why should we ignore that?

This isn't a "one time" issue, this is ongoing. Each thing Jon masters seems to be worse than the last. How are we being "crackpots" for pointing that out?

 

What about Joe Gastwirt? He used to be a big believer in NoNoise, but not anymore. I'm not sure if he was the one interviewed, but I remember awhile back reading an interview with a mastering engineer who said he used to use NoNoise on all tape recordings, but eventually realized he was making an enormous mistake.

How do those guys reach that moment of clarity, and others remain so dense? Ron McMaster has stated that his use of denoising techniques depends on what the reissue producer wants. If George Martin, Paul, Ringo, George's family, Yoko, Neil Aspinall, and everyone else at Abbey Road told Peter Mew "For the sake of humanity, do NOT use any of that NoNoise crap on the Beatles!," would he listen or just blow them off?

 

Robert,

What is HTF (excuse my ignorance)? The interchange you describe sounds wonderful. The free merchandise doesn't sound too hard to take either.

John

 

Come one, I'm not saying "you" but the minute there were any observations of something "wrong" on these Stones Hybrids, whose name came up immediately as the suspect?? If people had attitudes like that towards me then I wouldn't bother having anything to do with such a place. Life is too short...

Todd

 

Friends,

It is readily achievable to criticize the outcome and final product of a mastering effort without taking "cheap shots" at the dedicated and sincere human being(s) who completed the work. Criticism and sharing of revelations of mastering problems are worthwhile and productive while personal attacks serve no useful purpose, in any professional setting, as this place is and should be.

We all need to remember that Steve is an "industry" professional with high standards and inherent values of high integrity. We need to clearly understand and accept that as Forum members we have an implied responsibility to respect that above all other motivations. This is, merely, acceptance of our personal responsibility and accountability for our conduct and behavior on Steve's forum.

I believe that we, as SH Forum members, should hold ourselves to the same high standards as our sponsor. In fact, we should celebrate those standards and values as professional ideals for the betterment of why we are here!

Bob

 

Home Theatre Forum


I've been reading posts there for years (since they started). I became a member recently but haven't really posted. A great place for film/DVD lovers...

 

Keep in mind that I've been saying Jon *didn't* have a hand in the noise reduction problems on Between The Buttons. I've been saying all along that I thought his work was minimal...

 

Luke, I know, I know. It wasn't you who made that call...

 

We haven't been too critical IMO. And we should continue to be critical of his work. Otherwise what's the point of the forum??

We should avoid being nasty or personally insulting but in Astley's case we have to accept that we will not be "friends" with every engineer.

Unless he is looking to grow.....

 

btw HTF cancelled their online chats due to the fact the members were too critical of the guests

 

Exactly! Even on Audio Asylum, where one would think that people would know better, there are a couple of reviews of the new Stones remasters that say, essentially, "yeah they're pretty good, but I can still hear some tape hiss."

Honestly, what Mew and Astley do is liked by far more people than those who dislike their mastering styles.

Ray

 

just one person's opinion

I believe the premise overstates our importance, and undermines our integrity. I always try to remain fair in my opinion; but if it can't be said here, it'll be said somewhere.

If you're going to work in a professional arena, you'd better expect to be criticized by professionals and laymen/women alike. There are plenty of places where professionals meet and give honest evaluations freely behind closed doors. It's nice to have the ability finally to hear opinions, in an open forum, that privately I've thought to myself - for years.

Josh

 

I absolutely agree. It would be great to ask some pertinent questions..First in line should be Bill Inglot. I'd love to ask him a few. I own thousands of Rhino CDs. Unfortunately, Bill was never accessible. Come on Bill join the party! It's great here.