Do you consider DJs/EDM artists to be musicians (lifted from another thread)

If they've been playing percussion instruments a long time, they'll have the rhythm. A trained percussionist could pick up on scratching due to that element. That's my point. Percussionists do have skill sets that others don't. Rhythmic ones if their any good! Again (like I told hutlock), I certainly didn't mean to stir anyone up.

 

With that logic, anyone can scratch, too, or make EDM. Is there an intended way to do that? A theramin takes two hands to play by the way.

 

much like many scratch djs can play a drum or a beat at least a simple one, especially if you double as a producer since you spend hours getting a drum sample or drum machine beat just right you pick up on certain elements. Just because someone's role in an orchestra is playing a single drum or percussive instrument doesn't mean I can just step in for them opening night tomorrow without formal training, just like not anyone can go up to a turntable and a mixer and make a cohesive sounding routine. They all take a degree of practice, training and skill

 

The reason its untrue fundamentally is because scratching on a turntable doesnt produce melodic notes, it is just done with rhythm. But you dont strike a turntable to produce the rhythm like a typical organic percussion instrument, and the movements used to strike drums is nothing like the movements used for scratching. Theres a lot more coordination involved between the hands for scratching to make it sound good, and the right and left hand are always doing completely different things to coordinate the sound.

So a typical percussionist couldnt not carryover any of his guiro, claves, or conga skills in that regard, and vice versa. He may have rhythmic ideas in mind, but he could not pick it up quickly because of those ideas. The fundamental scratching technics have to be learned first, then theres the advanced ones, then you can apply your knowledge, but it wont be quick. Thats the unfortunate thing about learning scratching, it takes way too long to get good.

 

I'm trying to think of the skill that brass, winds, keyboards, and strings have in common that they don't also share with being a superb DJ. It seems like one of the big differences is time: a five-minute computer-assistent sonic collage might be patiently constructed over many hours or days, whereas a more traditional instrument is primarily live: it generally takes 5-minutes, no more and no less, to play a 5-minute song on a traditional instrument.

 

Is chick corea a DJ?

 

I understand your argument, and I know (a few, actually) professional percussionists as well.

What I'm saying is just because someone has a percussion skill set doesn't mean they will be able to pick up scratching. Just like playing percussion has a lot of subtleties to it that the average person doesn't see, there are a WHOLE ton of those to scratching, and mixing too for that matter. An inherent sense of rhythm helps, but that doesn't mean your brain or your muscles will process the skills needed in the proper way.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Do you know what a guiro is?

 

The ability to play a series of individual notes, while articulating them in a manner that makes them sound like a single melodic phrase. That's the core of what musicians on single line instruments do. Additional skills are required for folks who play polyphonic instruments.

 

There are many percussion items you don't strike... like a guiro. You pretty much scratch it in both directions (if you're playing it as intended). I'm not putting down scratching, and agree that it takes a lot of practice to be good at it. My point was that having good rhythm already will help once you get the actual technique of scratching down. I think a percussionist could pick it up a bit faster than someone with no training in rhythm. It's just my opinion.

 

I guess so, because after being extensively trained in music, the muscles you need for scratching (which i am perfectly capable of hearing and seeing the subtle details of), are already built up if you play percussion. I'm by no means saying scratching is easy, or that mixing is easy in the world of EDM. It requires a lot of practice no matter what.

 

Yes, and the movements to use the Guiro are approaching the movements for dj scratching in a basic way, but not close enough for a guiro player to carry it over and pick it up quickly. The journey to learn scratching is a tough road. I do wonder if a guiro player would remember to use patterns he learned with the guiro by the time he learned the actual scratch techniques to replicate the guiro rhythms. But the resulting sounds of those movements for both could be comparable, I get your drift.

 

I think I'm more concerned with the brain ability and how to fit the scratching in to the context of the rest of the music than I am with the physical ability to scratch. There are YouTube videos of cats scratching turntables, after all.

 

Now this I wonder, I wouldnt think its true, but I cant say since I dont play percussion instruments. I trained the muscles in my arms and wrists to do certain things for scratching, but thats is only on a horizontal basis. Vertical fast movements, like for percussion, I really dont know. So I wonder if the muscle speed I developed could carry over to any other instrument. Or vice versa. I dunno, because to scratch you have to develop the muscles to work extremely lightly to keep a stylus from skipping. So if you didnt learn gentle speedy hand movements from something else, thats a hard thing to retrain yourself to do to learn scratching.

 

I meant being GOOD at it. Anyone can move a record back and forth. Doing it with skill takes good rhythm and coordination.

 

The main thing you learn as a percussionist (when taught by a pro) is to have a light touch. Ever hear someone make a conga sing by moving their thumb across it? That takes horizontal finesse, man! The rhythm you've developed by scratching would certainly carry over into other percussion instruments. I've seen it work both ways.

 

No surprise.

The post question has me thinking about whether world class vocalists like Streisand, who doesn't compose or play any instruments, is considered a musician or not. We've all heard the term "voice as an instrument" but is it, strictly speaking? She is clearly an artist, but so is Yoko Ono with a grating voice.

 

I think so, as much as I loathe Babs. I also think Yoko is.

Clearly, given the rest of the Forum's reaction here, my definition of "musician" is a lot broader than many of the rest of the folks here.

 

I personally don't think "singing" qualifies you as a musician. You have to be using tools in front of you to create music [whatever those are].

 

If you don't accept voice as an instrument then you have to say that Ella Fitzgerald is not a musician(see the Youtube clip I posted earlier) and neither is Frank Sinatra, etc. IMO, it is ludicrous to think that they are not musicians. Is a whistler not a musician also?

 

A human voice can be an instrument, it can go high/low, change keys, etc.

 

And she can read.

 

^^^^^^ that implies?

 

Agreed. Vocal cords are a musical tool just like the strings on a guitar, or the keys on a piano.

 

I dont know how anyone who has seen a choir or accapella group, or listened to a singer with harmonized background vocals could think the voice isnt an instrument.