Do you run with Anti-Skating on or off on your Turntable?

Please, if you answer this post, at a minimum first state what Turntable you are using, and how long you have been using it - then please state WHY or what lead you to the conclusion you did or did not need anti-skating. (trying to avoid yes / no answers without any further context).

The ideal answer**:

1. I am using <turntable make / model> for <x> years.

2. I use Anti-Skating feature on the TT <Yes / No>

3. Here is my rationale, or history, testing and / or findings as to why I run with Anti-Skating on or off. (it's OK to say I use because it's there and thought is what you are supposed to do!!)

4. Here is how I test to verify the Anti-Skating is accurate and actually works on my Turntable.

I am not going to share my own experience until there are a number of replies, I want to hear others experiences. Don't assume that everyone does what you do.

** Think about your answer in terms of if someone new to the hobby was reading it, and found it in the archives in 12 months. Thus yes / no is not particularly useful without context. Sharing your rationale and history / testing that you did that led you to your conclusions, yes / no answers will not really help those trying to understand.

If you answer only with yes or no, you will asked to elaborate further.

 

I’ve used a Michell Gyro SE with an Audiomods Classic II tonearm for about two years.

I do use anti-skating.

I use it because the manufacturer of the tonearm recommends it and explains in detail in the instructions that come with the tonearm how to set it properly. http://www.audiomods.co.uk/armSetupClassic.pdf

I believe it should be used because the manufacturer that has been professionally involved in tonearm design and sales for many years recommends it. I don’t think that I, a retired insurance company executive, have knowledge or experience that makes me believe that I know more about that subject than he and so I may safely ignore the advice given.

I have not run any scientific tests.

Full disclosure: I also blindly trust BMW when they recommend that I keep oil in the engine, but not Lenovo when the recommend Windows 10.

 

I am using a Linn LP12 Sondek with a Valhalla power supply. The arm is a Blue Note U3 uni pivot. There is no true anti skate on the U3, but the instructions state to twist the counter weight. I do not do that as it makes the stylus not parallel to the record. So what I do is when I set up the arm, I twist it slightly so the cables give a bit of force to the arm, works great with my Denon DL160. I tried it with no force,ie the arm cable is not giving any resistance, and did not like the sound as well, not a big difference, but some none the less.

 

I have three tables in use, Thorens TD 320 (since new in the mid/late 80s), Micro Seiki DD-40 (couple years or so), and Clearaudio Avantgarde (6 months). The Thorens is pretty highly modified, including the tonearm, but retains the pivot assembly and magnetic anti-skate (though the spring controlled tracking force has been removed). The Micro Seiki has some customizations, both cosmetic and electrical, but the MA505 tonearm is stock. It uses a linear tracking force system with tungsten wire and spring, and the anti-skate bias is applied by deflecting the wire. The Clearaudio with Satisfy tonearm uses a series of magnets embedded in the bearing housing, and in an adjuster screw to control the bias.

In all cases, I currently set the anti-skate using a blank record (nowadays, the blank side of the great Blackened Cities EP by Melanie de Biasio). I set it so I get a slow drift toward the center of record, maybe half way between stationary and the fast drift with no anti-skate. This is similar to what is advised by Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith, and based on Frank Schroder studies as well.

 

Other albums that have the blank side to facilitate the testing you do for others - Donald Fagen "Sunken Condos", Phish "Fuego", Joe Jackson "Grand Monde" and another Phish LP I have that also have a "blank" Side 4.

Question - (and you know I am just probing for more discussion ) - in theory, if the stylus is drifting toward the center of the record - again in theory - is it not true then that the skating force is not perfect? Shouldn't the stylus sit at one point on the blank record and not drift, anywhere you set the stylus? Or is anti-skating really just about the optimal level of compromise?

 

Yea, another favorite from 1997 with a blank side I've often used is Built To Spill Perfect From Now On. And, by definition, anti-skating is always a compromise, whichever method you choose to set it...

How Do I Adjust Anti-skating On My Cartridge? | Soundsmith
When you have it adjusted right, the arm will track on the SURFACE of the record (not in the groove) at the end of the record on the un-pressed flat space where the run-out groove is – it should track SLOWLY INWARDS toward the center at a MUCH SLOWER RATE than IF IT WERE ACTUALLY in the end groove. If you do that, then the best average Anti-Skating is set correctly.

 

Rega P3 & P5, antiskating is used on both.
I set it by running them through the HiFi News test record. The both pass the all the bias check bands.

 

1. I am using <turntable make / model> for <x> years.

KAB Technics M5G - I use AS - been using it since 2009
VPI Classic - I do not use AS - been using it since probably 2012 - it is a feature - I just do not use it as per VPI recommendation and I do not notice any difference as compared with the Technics.


4. Here is how I test to verify the Anti-Skating is accurate and actually works on my Turntable.

On the Technics I used the HIFI news test record to set it. I haven't gotten around to testing the VPI. In fact I've changed my cart so many times on the Technics that the values are probably off and I haven't noticed.

I've also tested/set with the blank side of an album (drive by truckers) - I think the best way is with headphones and a test album.

 

Currently Thorens TD-124/II, SME 3009 Series II, Ortofon 540/II tracking at 1.55g, anti-skate at 1g.

As with VTF and VTA I set it by ear, but almost always end up with 2/3rds the tracking weight. I use a combination of stereo and mono albums and listen to dynamics etc. Steely Dan’s Gaucho is a fav as it has nice wide panning and a lot going on in the top end. It even has the lyric line ‘skate a little lower now...’, which is often right.

I do not like test disks and wasted a lot of time with them in the past. They always end up with a ‘worst case scenario’ that will get through a real torture track, but tends to sound dead and lifeless with normal records. I also almost always end up with the arm perfectly flat VTA-wise and the tracking weight at or just a smidge above the manufacturer’s recommendation, so sometimes I wonder why I spend so much time on it!

 

Thanks.

Just FYI and some things to chew on - Testing to verify does not have to be "scientific" folks do some simple things at home to see if the skating is accurate, and doing what they think it is. Look at Davey’s post for example with a blank record side. Simple and easy… some debate on it being perfect, but it does work and gives you a good idea what is happening. (I use this too). You do have to own a record with a blank side...

Then look at “vinylontubes” reply using the HiFiNews test record. A little more "scientific" in what it is doing as the test, and requires buying the record, but still easy to perform once you have it. (whether or not you will succeed on all bands is a different question - some think the test is tough and unforgiving, but if you do get through it, then you should have a good setting). A lot of people use this method also.

Then you have your ears – I see so many people who blame a cartridge for IGD when in fact it has more to do with skating at times – if your stylus is “leaning” to hard on one side of the groove wall over the other – your ears may be able to pick up the imbalance or distortion. This “ear” method gets tougher though for finer adjustments. There are other methods. I know folks that have ears that can tell you in which direction to adjust your skate just by standing in front of the speakers. (I already had this typed when I just saw Tony L uses the ear method!!!)

You might be surprised to learn that just because you set your skating to "1.5" on your LP-120 or even your SL-1200, and set it the same as the tracking force, that you might not be getting the result you think. In fact, some TT's that people think are actually setting some adjustment to skate actually aren't. So in some cases, doing what the "manual told you to" was like putting the wrong oil in your car - to use your analogy.

 

Technics SL-1900 (ten years) -On. With it off i'll get serious mis-tracking and permanent 'lean' damage. It actually happened...
Currently using an Orto-Blue 1.4 @ about 1.4 AS. I think. The dial goes in .5 increments 1.0-1.5 etc..
No VTA on this model which is fine with the Blue, when using an AT cart I use a thicker cork mat.
Visual only by setting the cart down and watching which way the styli directs itself and adjust accordingly.

 

I set the anti-skating on my Rega P9 as directed in the instructions because I like to keep it simple and I trust Rega to know what they’re talking about. I’ve been doing it this way for about 4 or 5 years. My method of verification is listening to my records, which sound good.

 

I use a Linn Basik with an Akito plus an Ortofon OM 20 ....I have had the table/arm 20 plus years the Ortofon 5 years or more ..... I set my anti-skate to around 0.5x the tracking weight and then fine tune by ear. In addition to this I have set the cartridge up using a two point protractor.......On 95% of my records I seem to have few problems.....there is the odd used record that can give a small amount of distortion but as these are second hand, one can only guess about what was used to track the record before I bought it.

 

The problem with this method is the correct anti-skate value is different depending on the specific tip profile as the groove-wall contact between say a conical, elliptical and micro-line stylus differs and theoretically demands a different amount of anti-skate even if the tracking weight is the same. How much that is can’t be determined by the very bottom of the tip skating on a flat surface as it is an entirely different scenario.

The other thing to bare in mind is the whole thing is hopelessly compromised anyway as the amount of anti-skate also varies dependent on the position on the record and the modulation of the groove wall, so theoretically you need more in the loud bits than in the quiet bits, and (if I understand it correctly) at the points tracking error is at its worst. The math is very complex and beyond me I’m afraid, but it does exist.

PS I’m happy enough with my usual 2/3rd setting as it seems to sound right and my styluses don’t seem to wear faster one side than the other which has to be the big tell. It is a compromise, but everything to do with a conventional pivoted tonearm is a compromise. I’m also limited with my early 3009 as anti-skate is in 0.5g steps so I can’t get too OCD about it! I have owned plenty of arms in the past with dials and ended up in about the same place anyway!

 

Yes, as I stated, "some debate on this method being perfect" but I do think it can still be a decent indicator and give a sense on what is going on.... I don't think ANY of the methods mentioned so far are 100% perfect - and some might contend the ear method (that you employ) is the most prone to error! Although, while I have also heard some swear it is the best.....

Yes, agreed, 100% - I asked this question earlier about the compromise, and Davey touched on it with his answer. Due to the physics of centrifugal force, lever arms and distance from the pivot, this is really all a compromise trying to make the "pull" be fairly equal on both sides of the disc toward the center if possible. (Davey touched on that too). Moreso if your anti skating employs a hanging counterweight / pulley arrangement. BUT THAT DEPENDS if you have skating on in the first place. (a topic still not developed here).

 

One commonly mentioned element that I believe has no effect on this issue is centrifugal force. The stylus is being dragged, not spun.

 

I am not following - can you elaborate a little?

 

1. I’ve been using a Technics SL-1200 MK2 for a year.

2. I use Anti-Skating on my turntable.

3. I use my anti-skate because I feel like it’s intended purpose makes sense. Also because it’s there and feel that the creators of the turntable understand the geometry far more than I would.

4. I started out setting my anti-skate to the same value as my tracking force weight (about 1.8). This method is suggested in lots of places across the net. This caused my arm to pull away from the records center whenever I would raise it with the cueing lever.

When I listen to music I more often than not imbibe. This presented a problem because when I wanted to pause my album to go grab another beverage my stylus would be 1/2” to 1” away from the point from which it was lifted. I was also uncomfortable knowing that the stylus must be raking against the groove pretty strongly on my right side facing the table.

So in the end I decided to turn up the anti-skate only enough so that it would slightly and gently pull back only when in the locked groove. That makes my anti-skate set at 1.1 with my tracking force at 1.8 on an Ortofon Red.

Is this the right way? No. Is it a good way? Maybe. Does it make me happy? Sure! Honestly my ears can’t tell either way.

 

@TheVinylAddict skating is depending on friction force, has nothing to do with centrifugal force.

 

Absolutely. The record pulls the stylus in a direction that is angled in toward the spindle, as compared to an axis through the pivot and the stylus. The tonearm constrains the stylus, pulling back. The net result of those two forces is inward, toward the spindle. The more tracking force you apply, the more friction. Change to line contact, you get more contact area and therefore more friction. More friction requires more anti-skating compensation.

 

@missan are you going to share with us your details and method? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

Let me present a scenario or two to test my own thinking - realizing that I only got a B in 15 hours of Univ Physics, and I think I was hungover the week we covered the physics around this! (btw, in our second year physics, they graded on a curve and my B was from only a 51% for the semester.... brutal class).

OK - I am of the belief that any spinning disc introduces centrifugal forces - for example, take a spinning LP, and take everything else out of the equation for a moment - if you place something on that spinning disc, isn't the natural tendency for the spinning disc to "throw" that item off the disc? (Imagine a disc spinning very fast and you place something on it to magnify and drive the point home).

Isn't the needle / stylus subject to that exact same force (how can it not be?), and that force is part of the compensation / compromise you are dealing with in setting skating?

Again, not preaching, not 100% sure, not a Physics professor, only playing back what my reptilian brain sees here.... if you are 100% certain, are qualified and / or have a reference, then please state as such. That is why we have this thread, and I am always learning....

 

At the end of the day, is this not all that really matters???

 

There is little doubt in my mind that this method is imperfect, exactly because...

Although the blank record method gives, as you say, a decent indicator, in my opinion, it is less compelling than simply following the manufacturer's directions. If the blank record method was accurate, I'd think that Audiomods instructions would have begun, "Obtain a blank record."

 

1. I am using Linn Axis for 27 years. Since 1,5 years equipped with a Moerch UP-4 arm

2. I use Anti-Skating feature on the TT. Yes.

3. I get lower distorsion, lower wear and better channel balance.

4. Here is how I test to verify the Anti-Skating is accurate and actually works on my Turntable:

a) run it on a blank part of a record, initial set: tonearm move slowly inwards
b) check the stylus when set down into a groove. It should not bend left or right but should stay in its neutral position. Often easy to see when filming the needle during stylus drop down.
c) check with a tracking test up to 100 um (Ortofon test record). Fine adjust if needed and go to b) for check again

Done. Retest every 100 hours or so. The polish of the stylus changes over time/play and generally polish degrades/friction increases. I cannot be sure though that there is a period of natural polishing during the first hours of play that initially decreases the friction (the so-called break-in period).