Doesn't anyone else think DSD sounds phony?

Owning the MOFI, I haven't even thought of trying the SACD! That version is so good, its worth the money you'll have to pay for it!

 

The problem I see with the discussion in this particular thread is although the it is supposed to be about the merits or not of DSD most of the material being discussed is remasters of older technology being reproduced through DSD at the final stage. Except for maybe the Telarc disc which everybody is talking about in the context of musical content/merit. If we want to analyze DSD sound shouldn't we be discussing either recordings done completely using DSD from start to finish or at least recordings done with up to date technology?
What we have here is sort of like trying to judge the picture quality of the latest/greatest most advanced high definition TV set using an old 1930's unrestored black & white film full of flaws and impairments.

Maybe the title/subject of this thread should have been:

Doesn't anyone else think DSD sounds phony when used in reproducing recordings/remasters of older material?

 

I agree with that totally. I've told several of my friends already, that the real proof of what DSD and SACD can do can really only be heard in DSD recordings. Unfortunately for some, the only full DSD recordings that I know of now are either Classical or Jazz. I have quite a few full DSD classical recordings on Telarc, BIS, Sony Classical, DMP, etc. and they all sound wonderful to me, some better than others. The BIS recordings particularly stand out. Nome of them, IMO, sound 'phony'.

There is also another problem. If one is trying to compare DSD to PCM, on the basis of a DSD or PCM recording, how does one go about it? I know of no recordings that were done simultaneoulsy in DSD and Hi-Rez PCM and then mastered to their respective mediums; i.e. SACD or DVD-A. Even a Hybrid SACD has it's Redbook layer converted from a DSD recording. That brings up another point. Someone stated (forgive me if I forget who or where, there are so many different threads going on) that DSD was no good for mastering to Redbook, and that the Redbook layer of Hybrid SACD's didn't sound as good as they should (although they still sound very good) because converting form DSD to PCM was a bad way to master a CD. How does one know this? are there PCM recorded masters of the DSD recording as well that were mastered to CD or DVD-A /DAD instead of SACD to compare the PCM converted material to?

I don't know, just my opinion of course.

 

Ok, I'll respond to that, too. My MFSL Joe Satriani - Surfing With the Alien & MFSL Tom Petty - Full Moon Fever, both remastered using DSD, sound pretty darn good to me. I don't know if they're originally 100% analog recordings, though.

Guess we're all going to find out in a few weeks when Steve's CCR titles arrive in Hybrid SACD. Someone, hopefully, will do a comparison between them and his earlier CCR CD's.

 

Oh, you can bet the farm on that one.

 

Phony is a very harsh word. I don't think even DSD's harshest critics would say that it sounds phony. You can nitpick until you are blue in the face, but phony? I don't think so.

 

Well I'm wondering if there was a lot of variability in the MFSL BS&T CDs, or whether our systems just don't offer similar levels of playback. I dumped my copy of the MoFi on ebay shortly after I heard how much more alive Thomas's voice comes accross, and how much more dynamic yet less strident the brass is. There's just so much more texture and transparency on the SACD you'd have to wonder if the MoFi engineer was awake.

Since this forum mainly listens to classic rock, it's no wonder that the majority of opinion is skewed so heavily as it is. I own about 70 SACDs, and the better sounding of them didn't come from the likes of Journey or Dylan of Jackson or Carole King or even that James Taylor sacred cow, Hourglass, which is nothing more than a PCM > DSD transfer. If you want to hear SACD at its best, try these:

Chesky 02056 Rebecca Pidgeon The Raven
Chesky 02266 Ana Caram Blue Bossa
Columbia CS 65122 Dave Brubeck Quartet Time Out
FIM M041 Teresa Perez Artistry of Teresa Perez
FIM SACD 034 Arne Domnérus Jazz at the Pawnshop
Groove Note GRV1006 Jacintha Autumn Leaves
MFSL UDCD 757 Duke Ellington Blues In Orbit
Opus 3 194203 Various Test CD 4
Sony SRGL 614 M Sasaji & L A Allstars Birdland
ASV DCA 9117 Beethoven Ludwig Van String Quartets Op 130 & 133
Delos 32806 Vivaldi Antonio Four Seasons
Delos SACD 3237 Mahler Gustav Symphony No. 2 in C minor (Resurrection)
Hyperion 67114 Debussy Fauré Ravel Piano Trios
Red Rose RRM 06 Bach Johann Sebastian, Scarlatti Domenicoi Eliot Fisk Plays Bach & Scarlatti
SFSO 821936-0001-2 Mahler Gustav Symphony No. 6
Sony SRGR 742 Mahler Gustav Symphony No. 2 in C minor (Resurrection)
Telarc 60569 Mahler Gustav Symphony No. 5
Vanguard VSD 500 Gottschalk Louis Moreau Night in the Tropics
Vanguard VSD 501 Thomson Virgil Plow That Broke The Plains
Vanguard VSD 502 Canteloube Joseph Songs of the Auvergne
Vanguard VSD 503 Various Guitarra Flamenco

These don't sound "phony" and quite convincingly demonstrate that redbook isn't a very accurate means of recording or playing back music.

 

This statement is complete Horse puckey! As Drew has stated Joe Satriani and Tom Petty both on MFSL blow away their regular release counterparts.

BTW Drew, both of these albums are sourced from analog.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment.

These are excellent recordings. Excellent. I often recommend these pure DSD classical SACD's as well:

BIS SACD-1078 Takemitsu: How Slow the Wind, etc.
Delos SACD 3259 Shostakovich: Chamber Symphony; Schnittke: Piano Concerto
Telarc CD-80530-SA Music of Hovahness
BIS-SACD-1109 Prières sans paroles (French Music for Organ and Trumpet)
DMP SACD-09 Sacred Feast; (Choral music)

I agree that they don't sound phony, but I don't necessarily agree that they demonstrate that Redbook isn't accurate. Maybe they show that SACD can be more accurate, but not Redbook is inaccurate.

 

Wait a minute... are the recordings you refer to DSD recordings converted to PCM? If not, then I think you misinterpreted what GoldenBoy was trying to say. I believe he was asserting that DSD to PCM is not "the best" way to produce a redbook CD.

 

Vex,

Yeah after reading it again I realize that my response should have been direct to Khorn & Drew and not GoldenBoy. THXS

 

It isn't. That's why Doug Sax made separate DSD and PCM recordings of the five Fantasy titles Chad Kasem is selling.

Sony is said to have come up with a way to do DSD > PCM properly, but I'm from Missouri.

 

Woe, I think what I was saying has been totally taken out of context. Here is what I actually said in response to a post from Khorn:

 

Hey GoldenBoy, is the bottle half-full or half-empty? If I aim my garden hose at a rabbit munching on my tomatoes but miss him by 3 inches am I accurate? You wouldn't be an accountant for Arthur Andersen would you?

 

Uh, no, but I do have a couple opf friends who work for WorldCom.

 

But, seriously if someone was killed by a bus and one eyewitness said they saw the person crossing the street when the bus turned and ran her over, and another eyewitness says they saw the person hurriedly crossing the street against a Don't Walk sign when a bus turned quickly around the corner, came to a squealing halt but still ran over the lady and killed her, would you say that the first eyewitness was inaccurate in his assessment?

 

I think we are all overintellectualizing our music listening experience.

I'd like to think of myself as a stalwort audiophile, but sometimes I guess you have to just let it go if you don't like what you hear.

I keep getting into arguments with my coworkers when they tell me "this good enough for most people". Today my boss told me I'm about a month away from losing my job if I don't change my attitude. He wasn't joking. How do I know? He shoved a New Age self help guide into my hands and wants me to take anger management courses.

But I'm sure if I had a Bose Acoustimass system like his I'm sure we'd get along great!

I'm curious if Mr Hoffman had his job at DCC lined up when he started "pissing off" the people at MCA.

DSD indeed.

 

I'd leave it up to the jury to decide. From the picture you painted, they'd probably figure #2 gave an accurate account of the facts, but #1 had serious recording problems. The bus driver would probably be acquited.

 

Sorry to hear that, Drew. Rule number 1 for keeping a good job is,
keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open.

 

Well, you kind of proved my point. If one wanted to ascertain how the woman was killed, #1 would still be accurate, because the woman was indeed killed by being run over by a bus. If you wanted more details surrounding the circumstances, then #2's would be more accurate, but in the end, they both tell you that the bus ran the woman over, so they would both be accurate.

Anyway, how the heck did this get so morbid all of a sudden?

 

Worse... The nitwits I work with torment me with Mp3's all day!