DVD-A/DVD Players

Please forgive my ignorance. Why can't you play a DVD-A on a DVD player? What is different audio-wise in a DVD-A player?

 

The DVD-A player has not only the designation that it is MADE to handle audio bitrates higher than 96/24, but is geared to use and facilitate the audio standard, which is laid out much, much different than a CD.

So DVD-V players not only can't, but they won't play DVD audio specific to hi-rez. It's not made to read intense audio streaming. It's just going to stream simple DOlby Digital and DTS, maybe PCM.

Most DVD's have 2 or 3 folders with streams in them. The VIDEO_TS folder would be used by any DVD player. It would contain both audio, video and menus for let's say...a movie. The AUDIO_TS folder usually has audio-specific material in it, meant only for DVD-A players. A DVD-V player will not even LOOK in that folder.

Some DVD-A discs act differently when put in a V-only player, than using a DVD-A player, which usually opens up all of the high end options.

If you have a DVD-V player, you usually can only play the Dolby Digital mixes, and DTS if you're using the right stuff. With a DVD-A player, most will nix the Dolby Digital mixes, and leave the high-rez 5.1 and stereo tracks.

Does that help? The DAC chip in a DVD-A can read high bitrate streams. Less equipped DVD-V players can read DD and DTS like a mo-fo, but not higher bitrates and compression schemes.

But a DVD-A player will give you a great DVD-V performance AND an audio-only performance as well.

 

This is where the designation of one of the new hi-rez audio formats as DVD (Audio) tends to be misleading.

But in fact DVD-A is just another data format, that happens to be one approved by the DVD forum and therefore can use the name (not that that's stopped DVD+R and DVD+RW, also unapproved by the Forum).

You could ask the same question about SACD - why can't you play THEM on any DVD player? After all they all use fundamentally the same DVD disc technology on shiny silver discs.

The answer in both cases is that the detailed data formatting on all three formats (DVD-V, DVD-A & SACD) is different, and hence different decoding electronics is required in each case.

Peter

 

Thanks for clearing that up Scott, you are the Diet Coke of EVIL, Just one but never enough. Scott we have a Laser on the Moon called the Alan Parson's Project too! Mooo Ha Haaaaaa!!!!!!

That was really one of the best explinations I've ever heard on what a DVD-A machine is all about compared to just a DVD-V player.

Now could you do that with and SACD machine also or should I just buy one of these new Hybrid machine's that do both DVD-A and SACD?

 

Excellent explanation by Sckott. I will add that DVD-Video players are not able to perform MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) decoding. MLP is the data compression scheme used for DVD-Audio. Note that "data compression" should not be taken to mean "compressed audio", a la ATRAC, DTS, and Dolby Digital. Think of data compression like zipping and unzipping a file on your computer. You zip the file for storage and then unzip the file to obtain it in its full form for use.

 

Good way of layin' that all out Sckott.

I bought 2 DVD-A discs (Rumours and L.A. Woman) before I knew any of that stuff a little over 2 years ago. I just assumed I'd get terrific high rez on my regular DVD player (wrong.)

I'm hanging on to those as DVD-A is gonna likely be my next purchase of equipment and I've already got SACD which is essential IMO for all the SH remastered hybrids, but there's good titles out there and they're only available in one format or the other.

 

Do remember that DAD discs play in most modern DVD players. That means that the players are accessing high resolution (high bit rate) data, and yet are not DVD-Audio players.

The key is MLP.

Regards,
Geoff

 

Run.... Don't walk and buy a combo player. I just got the Pioneer 563a and it is the best audio purchase I've ever made. I feel like I have a new system. I don't have a "High end" system but it sounds like I do now.

Pioneer 563A SACD/DVD-A player

 

Those two DVD-A's will act differently when used in a DVD-A player. Menus and views will change, and the LA Woman disc for example, won't sound like you're in a Dolby Pro-Logic tunnel. The Stereo mix sounds normal.

Same with Rumours. You'll see the 96/24 Stereo option suddenly THERE where it was not before....

 

I also find the mixes act a bit strange in DTS/DOLBY D versus hi rez 5.1
On Queens The Game, the DTS mix does some strange stuff with the vocals and drums.....a lot of it sounds like it's behind you, where with the hi rez 5.1 it's very focused.

 

I've had a DVD-A player for almost 2 years and really enjoy the format. Some discs are better than others of course. Rumors and Donald Fagen's Nightfly are exceptionally good to my ears. BUT...here's a big point if you're thinking of getting into the format...not only must your player decode a high res signal (96/24 or higher) but in order to actually hear that kind of resolution you must pass the signal from your player using analog outs (2 for stereo 6 for multichannel) AND it must go to your receiver or preamp into analog in's with a signal path that bypasses any digital processing. A lot of newer receivers/preamps are like this because of the home theatre 5.1 boom, and some older high end ones have an "analog' switch to bypass digital circuitry. If you get the signal from your player and you're still able to add ambiance ("hall," "club," "surround" type reverbs) or eq (some receivers have analog, but most newer ones have digital) you're probably not hearing the signal in full high res. In those cases the high res signal is converted back to digital and processed before being converted back to analog. That extra processing defeats the origianl conversion to high res. Don't get me wrong-the signal still sounds very good, just not as good as it potentially could with the right signal path.

 

Thanks for the very fine explanations guys. It's just another reason why I enjoy coming here so often.

 

Thanks for the tip Bobou2!

 

Looking at your profile, it seems it's the only audio purchase you've made. Please add the rest of your system, mate. Thanks

Regards,
Geoff

 

Geoff,

I don't agree.

If you don't mean DVD Audio by "DAD" please enlighten me on the terminology and ignore the rubbish below!

However, if you do mean that (the V in DVD stands for versatile, not video), then AFAIK what you have said is not right.

All DVD-A discs play in DVD-V players, but they are not accessing the high resolution DVD Audio data (which is in multichannel MLP format). They are just playing supplementary audio tracks in DVD-V formats, usually compressed Dolby Digital, or occasionally if you're lucky, DTS. These tracks are in there for compatibility with all DVD players, but if you're buying DVD-A for the advanced audio medium it is, most people are not going to be interested in DD or DTS.

The three bog-standard DVD-As I own only have 448 kbps DD soundtracks accessible on a standard DVD-V player, and IMO it's just not good enough.

The other three DVD-As in my collection are much more acceptable without a DVD-A capable player, and that's because they have full capacity 1.5 Mbps DTS soundtracks.

But two of these are not standard DVD-A discs. They are double-sided discs with pure DVD Audio formats on one side and a DVD-V disc on the other. One of these goes a stage further, and has a 24 bit 96kHz stereo PCM track on the DVD-A side which will play back on a DVD-V in 24 bit 48 kHz stereo.

Most DVD-As are in the format of my first three discs (DD tracks only if you don't have a DVD-A player).

I have a relatively high proportion of the "better" DVD-V compatible discs simply because I don't have a DVD-A player as yet, and have been selective and limited in my purchases.

I am equipped for SACD, the principal reason being that, for me to date, most of the hi-rez discs I have wanted have been on SACD, so that's where the money has gone . There are other reasons I prefer SACD, but only one approaches being decisive.

Of course, one day I will be adding DVD-A capability as well, as for once I expect coexistence is more likely than elimination of one of the competing formats, but that's another story.

Regards,
Peter

 

A DAD disc is a 96/24 encoded disc with the information that goes in the TS_VIDEO folder, so most every DVD player will play it. Some players however, downsample these tracks.

A DVD-A player wouldn't though.

See www.classicrecs.com for DAD discs.

 

Thanks Sckott.

Yes, Peter, I was using a "reasonably well-known" (not being disparaging, mate) abbreviation for Digital Audio Discs, that had a brief fling (mainly Chesky and Classic). I was not making up my own abbreviation for DVD-Audio.

"V in DVD stands for versatile" - yep.

Why would they do so? Is it because they are an older player with a DAC that is not capable? Is the downsampling done just prior to the old DAC?

Do they mathematically pull this down to 44.1/16? I doesn't appear obvious how to get 44.1 out of 96?

Is this done in just very cheap audio-capable DVD players?

Regards,
Geoff

 

The signal is PCM. 96/24 strictly. Most any DVD player will play a DVD video with a stereo PCM signal. (See the linkl below describing when and why it would be downsampled)

One of my first DVD players, a Toshiba DID downsample. An Apex DVD player I got after, didn't.... Go figure!

Most DVD players are perfectly capable of playing the 96/24 without downsampling. Check with the manual if you're confused. All recent DVD players will read at a 24bit with 96khz or above. Remember the Chesky and Classic Recs are ACTUALLY DVD-VIDEO DISCS by definition, not DVD_Audio, because they only use the TS_VIDEO folder, and therefore, all DVD Players within the last 3 years or so will read PCM at that rate.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/myths/dvdaudio1.html

DVD players read bitrates of audio and video that vary from disc to disc, so you bet they're versatile! There are standards of which every DVD disc must be, but the audio and video bitrates are variable. Sometimes people just use up the disc using the higher bitrates for smaller programs, others use something smaller, <4200bps, to fit more than 2 hours on one layer... But the video goes stinky, and all you can put in that is a DD 2ch audio track..

 

Regarding dvd-video player downsampling:

My Panasonic DVD-R31 (2001 model) will play 96/24 PCM tracks without downsampling UNLESS the disc manufacturer has enabled this feature (through the disc's playback software). This is from the player's instruction manual.

Example: when I still owned that Eric Johnson dvd-audio, I was able to play its 96/24 PCM stereo track on the Panasonic with no problem. But, only through the player's RCA analog outputs--the digital output was turned off (I checked & no Borg-like glowing red light).

BTW: sometimes manuals refer to regular PCM as "LPCM", where the "L" stands for "linear". And Meridian Lossless Packing (the letters "MLP" seen on dvd-audios) is sometimes referred to as "PPCM", where the "P" stands for "packed". And just for the sake of completeness "PCM" stands for "pulse code modulation"!

[T]

 

Thanks Sckott, I did need enlightening! DAD is NOT DVD-A (sorry, Metralla - no disparagement intended this end either, it's just things get a bit confusing at times, and DAD's just something that's passed me by.......).

One thing that I didn't find clear on the Classic Records site - are these DADs all stereo? And is the format capable of 4.0 or 5.1 through a DVD-V player, or would that require more decoding facilities than are currently available on A/V amps? I presume bitrates might also be limiting, but if you can fit in 2.0 24/96, then 4.0 24/48 or even 5.1 16/(44.1/48) should be fine in that regard.

So, which is the best-sounding Muddy Waters - Folk Singer?
1. Classic 24/96 DAD
2. Chess 200gm vinyl
3. Chess SACD (& are there any more contenders?)

When I mentioned the double-sided disc that had a 48kHz downsampled 24/96 PCM track playable from the DVD-A side on my DVD-V player, am I correct in assuming that this basically uses the DAD technique (PCM stereo track in the TS-VIDEO folder)? The disc is Zephyr:Voices Unbound, from Aix, BTW.

Regards,
Peter (learning as fast as possible)

 

Peter is correct. DVD does in Fact stand for Digital Versatile Disc. The V does not stand for Video although it did when Sony and Toshiba both had 2 different formats of the machine. Meaning that the 2 companies had to get together and decided on one format.

One company had just a 1 sided disc with a better way of compressing more on to the one sided disc and the other company used both sides of a disc but didn't have as good a way of compressing the amount of data to the disc.

The Video Software Dealer's Association or VSDA didn't want to go through a battle of the formats like Sony's Beta and JVC's VHS did. It was evident that video rental stores didn't want to see this happen and the talks began. Hence only the one DVD format was born but it was then decided that the V wasn't going to stand for Video but the format would be in fact Versatile.

I think that's one thing to put in the glossary here. Just to make the distinction of DVD - A for Audio and DVD - V for Video when using the DVD as a format.

 

My mistake. I now see that the 96kHz signal is downsampled to 48kHz - which makes perfect sense - and then fed to a DAC that's capable of dealing with this sampling rate (this is the DAT sampling rate). Due to the presence of DAT converters in the market place, it's reasonable that there are some receivers/DACs that can take this signal.

As to Peter's question, this is stereo only. See the link Sckott provided.

Regards,
Geoff