Elliptical can be very good!

Guess what? My Black is not damaged. I was probably playing wore out records that had some groove damages the shibata cut was picking up while the elliptical wasn't. Today I put it back, tried a couple of brand new records and it played perfectly. No need to buy that Bronze stylus for now.

However, the KAB concorde gave me itches...

 

I have a rare AT p-mount cart that has a .02x.07 nude elliptical stylus that sounds fantastic.

 

I've always been impressed with the Shure M97xe which Shure made as a direct replacement for the V15 series. I have one of those around here still that I got back in the 1970's. I am the kind of person who believes that only the original brand and model of replacement stylus should be used with a cartridge, as long as they are still available. Many swear by the Jico SAS replacement stylus but I have not tried one. I believe that it would give different playback results, but a cartridge is designed to use a certain stylus so that it will give a certain performance. I don't want to challenge the design engineers plus I don't feel like paying $200. for something I may not like.

 

Audiophiles are famous for modding equipment, meaning changing the sound signatures of equipment. Modding in this definition simply means "Delta" or change.
It could be for the good, for the bad, for the whatever. The point is, not to put a label on it other than "Delta" or "change".

When we set out to "mod" something, we first have to determine what it is, before we can begin to determine, what we want it to be.

Once accomplished, we can then set out on a predetermined part to make these changes happen.

In this case the mod is changing the stock stylus to a aftermarket stylus of a different design. This "Delta" now has somehow made it better, "new-and-improved".

But is it?

What is better?

Before it was all "dark" and "veiled". Now, it is more "open" and "detailed".

Now, don't take the above statement literally, I was speaking figuratively, as I don't really know what it was before, nor do I know what it would be after the change was made. Besides, these "before" and "after" descriptive terms are purely subjective anyway.

The point is, that after the surgery, it is no longer what it was before. So, while there might be those who praise what it has become. There will be those who will morn the loss.

Me, I wouldn't do it either. I don't get the point. While I'm sure that it is now all that.

I am also sure what it is no longer.

Taking this out of the audio realm. I can cur fabric, dye it, and cut and fashion it into clothing of vintage design. I can then photograph said clothing and advertise it as a vintage reproduction from a particular era. Which may work for the majority of people.

Others, who really were from that vintage period, might examine the clothing and find that it is all wrong. It may look the same but one touch tells you that it is not the same. the materials may be different, the stitching may be different, and so on.

You buy a vintage cartridge for a certain vintage sound. Simply put, leave it alone! That is, if you want it to have its original vintage sound.

If, for what ever reason that you want or need it to be something different, then, by all means, change it any way your heart desires.

Just don't call it "vintage".

 

I have any problem with capacitance too. You have Technics and this has pretty low capacitance cables. I have measured capacitance of technics cable + tonearm and I have 73pF + 50pF from Tube Box S2 = 123pF total. I beleive it is pretty good capacitance for every MM cart. Am I right ?

 

123pF would be within the 100-200 recommended by AT so I guess it's good. My phono stage is 150pF, and I have 6ft cables with 20 per feet, so the chain goes up to 270pF. I'm afraid that would be too much.

 

JICO makes a lot of styli that are simply unavailable anywhere else, mostly for discontinued styli. The one I bought for my Stanton cartridge, an L747E, sounded identical to the original. However, I've found that in the case of replacement styli for my AT-14Sa cartridge, the JICO stylus is only up to the task of playing a CD-4 (discrete quadraphonic or Quadradisc Lp) for about 200 hours. The problem is that it's not a nude mount and the bonded bushing contributes too much mass. It plays stereo records okay, but the 30kHz carrier breaks up on the inner grooves after the time I mentioned. I've examined that stylus under my stereo microscope, and I've come to the conclusion that the quality of JICOs shibata styli isn't up to ATs standards. I recently purchased a new Audio Technica VM750SH, and it was an eye opening (or should I say ear opening) experience: Its sound is smooth without the "brightness" associated with the AT house sound, stereo separation is excellent as is channel balance. Stereo imaging is wide, and it is detailed. Even though AT only claims frequency response to 27 kHz, I can testify that it extends well beyond that: I can play any of my CD-4 discs with no noise and near-perfect demodulation of the carrier. I am using it in my Technics SL-1200 which has been modded by KAB with low-capacitance wiring.

I didn't intend to side-track the thread, so I'll get back to the elliptical subject matter. I find that the M97xe is an excellent performer and a great tracker. I have one, but it needs a new stylus, which I will order when I get back to Panama City. They were hard to get a year or so ago, all the usual sources were sold out. I guess Shure had a hard time keeping up with demand. Elliptical styli are great and, when properly aligned (that's true of line-contact styli as well) treat your records kindly.

 

My favourite elliptical is ATs nude 0,2x0,7mil, definitely.

 

I would get shorter, low capacitance cables, and get the AT. They are outstanding carts...

 

I would definitely do that. As mentioned above I have the VM750SH and it was a revelation in my system. Oh, and it's an excellent tracker, too. ATs new line of "V" are, IMO, the best MM carts they've made in years, maybe ever.

 

I'd like to. Right now I can't have much less than 6ft, unfortunately, and I don't think I wanna spend in cables. But maybe for the future, I'd like to. I bet they are great cartridges.

 

I may give this a shot, the new AT carts are taking their sweet ol' time reaching the US. I think this would fit my arm (technics sl-1900)

 

They are. You won't be sorry if you pull the trigger. You'll find yourself wanting to listen to your entire record collection over again. I'm using Audio Quest cables and when I bought them they were something like $75. I see now that their prices have gone sky high. Ones like I have are over $100, now.

 

That is about twice the length of a typical cable that would go from the TT to the phono preamp.

 

Yes, I measured it, actually I have about 5ft (1.5m) and could reduce it to about 3.3ft (1m). Audioquest King Cobra, my cables, have 19pF per feet so I would end up with 63pF, plus the TT wiring, plus 150pF of my Parasound JC3+, the path would go beyond the maximum recommended of 200pF anyway. I'd need a different set of cables.

 

Check Cardas, they are what my Vinyl Nirvana uses to rewire the Rega/Moth RB202 tonearms with. They sell entire wiring harnesses, I am told.

 

My Audio-Technica AT33EV is an elliptical, and it produces a more pleasing sound and tracks better than any other cartridge I have owned.

 

I have this cables RJL4P002S12 Technics Phono gold Cord RCA cable SL1200 GLD SL1210 M5G LTD MK2 MK5 5060293743461 | eBay
cable it self has cca 60-62pF - 1m length.

 

Elliptical is a force of nature, as the planets and virtually everything in the cosmos follow an elliptical path. Actually yes, elliptical styli can be very good indeed. I am a fan of the Shure M-95HE, hyper-elliptical which will give a decent line contact a run for its money.

 

I was pretty certain of this and was going to reply that you should re-examine your conclusion about the stylus being the issue. Glad that you have done so.

The only cable that enters into the capacitance equation for loading the cartridge is the cable built into your turntable/tonearm. The cable from the phono stage to the amp does not count. I doubt that is an issue either as a Technics deck should have about 3 - 3.5 feet / 1m or less of cable.
-Bill

 

Bill, thanks for the reply. My GR doesn't have built in cables. I use Audioquest King Cobra from TT to phono.

Does this count?

If it does, I'll probably never be within 200pF maximum with a 150pF phono stage. I can't find cables with less than 50pF / meter.

 

That's unfortunate; I didn't realize that they did that. Rega uses Klotz at 65pf per meter. That gets you under 200pf at 3'. That's about as low as it gets.
-Bill

 

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. I meant that the GR doesn’t have RCA cables attached to the turntable as the old SL1200 had. But there is a pair of RCA cables that came with the table. If this cables are 65pf per meter and I have 1 meter, I have more than 200pf if I count the 150pf of the phono stage itself.

That’s the conclusion I’m reaching. With a 15opf phono stage and with the need of 1m RCA cables I will probably never be within 200pf. Even with Klotz at 65pf I would have 215pf, but AT recommends 100-200pf. So I should forget about AT MM cartridges.

No problem, actually. There are a lot of great cartridges out there less sensitive to capacitance. It would be nice to have the option of trying AT but if I don’t, that’s fine too.

 

Signal Cable offers a phono cable that has a nominal capacitance of 18.9 pF/ft - it is priced right too. If you want to not worry about capacitance, try a moving coil cartridge. In my experience, more phono stages offer adjustments for loading resistance than capacitance...allowing you to better dial in the sound for the particular cartridge you are using.

 

I understand about the RCA connections. I don't think that you need to take the 200pf as if it were gospel. It is a target figure, and other aspects of cable also effect sound. 215pf is within 10% tolerance for 200pf, so that has to be fine. The thing with the AT sound is that it is typically a bit bright anyway, and many people like that as does it fit some systems that just have a darker overall presentation without that HF boost. I agree with you though that there are other choices, most of which I prefer to the AT.
-Bill