Empire 598 turntable, an awesome deal!

Original owner of an Empire 698 turntable here. Still runs perfect after 42 years of ownership and careful maintenance.

My main cartridge is a Shure Ultra 500, I also use a V15VxMR & a VST V Ultra Group Black SE.

As the old Empire ad used to state, built to last forever.

 

It will not rear the record if its a good stylus. Play a good record with a worn or bad stylus, even at 1.5 grams, it can damage a record.

Even at 4 grams, or 5 or 6, if its a good stylus, it will be fine.

So are you saying a denon dl103 will ruin a record because its tracking more than 2 grams?

 

There are even cartridges designed to track at 8 to 10 grams. I have a few, I use them, never damaged any of my records.
IF ITS A GOOD/NEW STYLUS, IT WILL NOT DAMAGE THE RECORD.

 

Thats a false statement, period. High tracking force accelerates wear to the grooves. That is a physical fact, it is not a matter of someones opinion. Not sure why you are insisting otherwise.

 

You just joined here yesterday. Shouting at seasoned members in all caps is not a good way to get started. You might want to slow your roll just a little bit.

 

From the Shure Corporation:

STYLUS PRESSURE
Another factor affecting both record and stylus wear is the downward pressure of the stylus tip on the record groove. The greater this pressure the greater the amount of friction generated between the walls of the record groove and the stylus tip. Increased friction naturally results in increased wear. However, the original pressure may change due to various mechanical conditions. The best method of counteracting this factor is to check the stylus pressure once a month. Periodic checking and correction, when required, can result in an increase of record and stylus life up to 10%. Most pickup arms have either a screw, nut, or lever by means of which the stylus pressure can be adjusted to the correct value. Several manufacturers produce stylus pressure gauges which are comparatively inexpensive and simple to operate. Due to their low cost, they can pay for themselves very quickly.

 

Maybe my link sent you to the wrong place. I was trying to show you the new motor, with speed control, they sell for Rek O Kut tables.

 

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. The only thing I saw there that I had mentioned buying in my post was the motor mount (grommet) set. Motors are somewhat pricey now, new, especially precision units. The Papst motor in the Empire rarely fails, unless it encounters a major lightning strike or flood (natural or an errant brew).

 

Actually, I've been a member here since 2007. And sorry for the ALL CAPS. I was actually looking for bigger letters but those were the biggest. LOL
That's me who made that reply. I couldn't remember my password so I had to create one quick so I can reply to what the other member was saying.

In reality, yes, if you play one same record every day for multiple times, it will do some wear on the grooves. But who plays the same record, multiple times daily? Give a record 24 hours to rest and play it again using a 3, 4, 5 gram VTF , it will not damage the record. Ill say it again, this is with a good or new stylus.

I restore vintage stereo/hifi consoles and these machines require heavy tracking force for the record changers to work properly. I do test these machines with my personal collections and have not damaged any of them. I have owned a number of 598 troubadors and I think they one of the finest TT built. And saying that this TT will damage your records is not true, totally not true. Why do I know it doesn't? Because I've owned a number of them. My claim is all based on experience, not something I've read.

My current turntable is an old VPI HW19 MkII.

 

The biggest problem I have with my 598 is the tone arm cable. It is not dressed to the plinth like the Linn LP12, so depending on how the cable hangs, it affects the suspension of the platter. I also cannot seem to get rid of some hum from the cable and arm connection. Empire did not use a universal tone arm and cable plug, so your are stuck with using the vintage tone arm cable. My cable has had the RCA plugs replaces with newer solderd on plugs, which may contribute to the hum.

 

There are aftermarket well made cables available. I got a well made one off E-Bay at a reasonable price.

As far as it affecting the suspension you have to get the proper U curve in the cable then tie the exiting part of the cable to the inside of the wood base with a cable hold down. If you do it right the cable will not affect the suspension.

 

[QUOTE="PerryC, post: 14027060, member: 15843"

In reality, yes, if you play one same record every day for multiple times, it will do some wear on the grooves. But who plays the same record, multiple times daily? Give a record 24 hours to rest and play it again using a 3, 4, 5 gram VTF , it will not damage the record. Ill say it again, this is with a good or new stylus.



>>>>>Again, a false statement. 3, 4, 5 gram VTF are terribly high weights and will wear out the record grooves quickly. Those kinds of VTF , even with a new stylus will destroy your records.

 

I am running a 598 II table , with the 1000 empire cart , i love it , Replaced the Grommets , got a new cable set (off ebay as mentioned above) Just a great table ....

I certainly am surprised to read the high tracking force listed in this thread , i have been running mine at 1.5 past 2 years & it seems to sound great , pretty sure i had read that figure in old Empire lit i had found on the web ?

Kinda curious what people are using to align the cart , mine seems to be a bit off these days , last time i set it was about a year ago with the stevenson print-out ......

Very cool to see an Empire thread

 

>>>>>>>You evidently cant read, or choose not to. I said in a previous post that I was thinking of a different, earlier Empire table and not the 598. You just decided not to read it , and then started attack posts. Good for you, enjoy reading your own posts. I'm sure you get a charge out of it.

And.....I also NEVER said that "anything above 1.5 grams will destroy a record".......where did you get that from?
It appears you made that up yourself. What I did say, if you had taken the time to read and not starting jumping down peoples throats, was that "tracking forces of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 grams will ruin your records , which they will eventually, the higher the force, the sooner.

And youre the one who called the engineers at Denon "idiots" and not me.
Myself, I run a Denon DL-110 at 1.7 grams. I love Denon carts and I'm sure have more experience with them than you have. I've owned and used 6 of them over the years, including the DL-103.

Please stop making things up, and stop that attack posts. I have notified the Gorts.

 

Guys, too light as well as too heavy tracking forces wear records faster. 2-3 grams tracking force won't damage or trash a record if the cartridge is designed to track it's best in that range. Poorly maintained and aligned arms damage records, worn out styli damage records, mistracking damages records. The Empire 598 in good order performs great and is gentle on records, no less than WQXR in New York City used the Empire turntables on the air when they began Stereo broadcasting. I'd be darned proud to own any Empire turntable up to the 598. I love the Troubador. Empire in that era was as fine as you could buy from anyone, including being competitive with Thorens. They are still great performers even today.

 

yes, I will backtrack just a little and say that 3 grams can be used safely if, as you say, the cart and arm are made to go to 3 grams. Anything above 3 tho...really IS "danger zone" for record wear. I mean 4 grams is a HEAVY force and the force on the record groove is pretty bad at that weight.

 

I checked eBay for a tone arm cable for the 598, there were two, one for $550 and another for $1200, both are ridiculous proces for a an old tonearm like that! there must be a cheaper alternative. Maybe, just replacing the arm all together with a used Sumiko or Grace arm?

 

I paid $130 for mine, VERY well made, perhaps the guy is off E Bay now. Hell I should've bought several I guess.

 

The Sumiko arm with the Esoteric Sound base kit will look neat and this is doable for an arm upgrade. Esoteric Sounds sells the Jelco arm as well new.

 

Yeh i think i paid $60 off ebay ............ if anyone is crafty you can build one , that;s what i bought a home-build from a guy , he bought the pins & made a round casing , ran the wires out with the Rca's on the end & then filled the round piece with what looks like an Epoxy to keep all in place , works amazing .

 

It appears that the arm base is part of the T sub platter. Does this require a lot of modification to upgrade the arm?

 

It is said to be an easy upgrade on the arm with the Jelco model Esoteric Sound sells and their mounting collar.

 

I respectfully disagree.

The single biggest cause of record wear "back in the day" was from dirt and ill-advised record cleaning and playing practices, not excessive tracking force. There were no record vacuum machines, no "directional" fiber pad record cleaners or any research into record cleaner fluids back then. Stylus cleaning was done with a finger or, if you were really into it, a nylon brush. No fluid. For record cleaning, what you had for the most part, were silicone infused cloths, sprays, and pads that not only ground dirt and grit even deeper in the groove, but deposited an oily film that trapped even more airborne debris. Since all this crud was now firmly adhered to the groove walls, even one play would inevitably cause the stylus to collect this stuff which would cake on, harden, and never be cleaned off. So, you now have this crud caked stylus grinding crap permanently into the groove, causing way more damage and wear than the 3 to 5 gram tracking force the cartridge may have been tracking with.

And if you washed discs, you did it with Ivory soap and a cellulose sponge, left to air dry...and then immediately re-contaminated with one of those damn cloths or sprays.

There was also the accepted practice (gleefully endorsed by manufactures and audio magazines) of tracking discs with the lightest possible VTF, even if the arm or cartridge weren't really designed for it. My own uncle insisted on tracking his Pickering 380 at one gram, even though 3 was the minimum recommended by Pickering. It didn't matter to him that he was mistracking all over the place and wearing out his discs using too little pressure. It "worked" and he was convinced he was retarding wear instead of causing the damage he did. And he was hardly alone, since he was being told that was what you should do.

Honestly? Audiophiles back then caused more record damage..proactively!.... than those with console stereos that just liked music.

The other cause of rapid record wear were the first audiophile elliptical styli. It wasn't quite understood how tracking at 2 grams with those early odd sized elliptical tips caused more wear than a conical tracking at 5 grams. The concept of tracking pressure per square inch and how the early elliptical styli were putting all their pressure on an incredibly concentrated section of the groove wall, resulting in more pressure per inch on the groove than the common heavier tracking conicals wasn't quite understood. (J. Gordon Holt of Stereophile did and rallied hard for the industry to rethink these new styli, which they eventually did)

And while I must say as a disclaimer that I personally prefer using arms and carts that track at no more than one and a half grams, in theory I'm with the others. As long as you keep your discs spotless, preferably with a VPI or similar vacuum machine, and are diligent with stylus care and alignment, and match cartridge to arm well, you can track even at five grams with no appreciable wear. If not, there would be no market today for the heavier mass arms and exotic moving coils that track at 3 grams plus. And the records I had as a kid NOT cleaned with a silicone based record care product that I regularly played on a Garrard 40B with a heavy tracking Pickering P-AC cartridge wouldn't sound as good as they surprisingly still do.