Genesis - early CD versions thread (Ver. 2)

this phenomenon is actually a distortion and it can happen if there is a saturation problem into the amp circuits. Also some compressors have this kind of distortion effect into their set features. this effect can be done easy with Audacity and the Valve rectifier plugin. i like the effect with some Blues and Jazz music

 

Abacab:

DR13 ... 01 Abacab VC PDO UK
DR14 ... 01 Abacab WG VRS (Vertigo red swirl)
DR14 ... 01. Abacab 23PD

DR13 ... 08 Like It Or Not VC PDO UK
DR14 ... 08 Like It Or Not WG VRS
DR14 ... 08. Like it or Not 23PD

Not a lot of difference.

Ha ha: Abacab is a lot more straight forward when you don't have a wonky PC drive periodically adding a sample to one channel:



I still do like the West German Vertigo red swirl the best. Pretty common CD though. I think we came to the conclusion that this one, Version 2 from the beg, is also the same as Version 3, just level shifted? I can't remember now ...

The 23PD is light in the bass, just like the other BT's I've looked at. For some reason, the 23PD sounds brighter than the red swirl CD, maybe because of how it's balanced. And the V/C PDO UK does have a little more low end and high end than the red swirl. They all sound pretty good though.

I'll probably look at ATTWT and W&W next, just because I want graphs that don't have a question of whether any extra samples are there or not!

 

I don't recall that. I have both Version 3s (WEA + JVC) if you need samples.

So, is the 23PD another version? I don't see it listed on Page 1.

 

Yes: the 23PD is a unique mastering for Abacab.

I have the USA WEA, but I didn't include it because I thought we had figured out that it was the same, but then I wasn't sure! I can take a quick look tonight.

If you look just at the EAC numbers, the pattern is similar between Version 3 and 2, and my notes say they are the same, but I don't know if that was me guessing that was true, vs one of us actually determining that.

 

OK, I can't do a null test, but at the very least, just comparing the freq spectra of each, the US WEA for Abacab is the same, just level shifted slightly, from the WG red swirl Vertigo:



So I think that version 2 and 3 are from the same source with no change in EQ.

 

It is strange that they have a +/-0.5dB difference in the high frequencies tough. Is that normal? Is it how the graph works? I have made EQ adjustments in mastering that weren't that big.

 

I have seen that before. It could be due to:

a) When I do a freq spectra subtraction like this, the current version of Audacity includes 238s or something vs the prior 23.8s. Before, I was really hyper about making sure each sample was exactly the same. But now, I'm not picky where I set the beg and ending of each song to do the freq profile with. (I just use the whole track as ripped from the CD.) So things might not perfectly cancel out even if they should.

b) And I can always handwave and say: phase differences.

I'll do this tonight though because you asked and I'm curious. I'll do another subtraction of exactly the same parts of each ripped song. That should also tell me if they are identical in length, digitally, which is another clue that they are from the same digital source.

 

You're seeing noise in the plot - those two plots are flat across the spectrum.

Do the null test and you'll see a shift in level of 0.2 dB, plus dithering noise around -96 dB. (I already did such a test for Abacab.)

 

Yes: I thought someone had done this already. You subtracted the waveforms directly. They cancel out after compensating for the volume shift. I'm subtracting the freq profile, which should be the same if I get the tracks exactly lined up.

 

Sigh!

I guess we'll need EAC details for Ver. 3 of this thread -- whenever that may be!

I don't recall that happening, but it may be buried in this thread somewhere! I do know that the WEA and JVC are the same just shifted in level. Let me know if you need JVC samples.

I see from your spectral comparisons that they are the same, but they are not shifted by a constant amount. We also do not know whether the WEA or JVC was created from the 800/32PD first, and which was subsequently shifted a second time!!

Here are the numbers for those who want to play at home!

Version 2 = 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%

Version 3 = 95.5% - 95.5% - 90.9% - 92.0% - 95.5% - 93.4% - 66.7% - 95.5% - 95.5%

0.955 x Ver. 2 = 95.5% - 95.5% - 88.8% - 89.9% - 95.5% - 91.3% - 65.2% - 94.4% - 94.1%

0.9766 x Ver. 2 = 97.7% - 97.7% - 90.8% - 91.9% - 99.7% - 91.2% - 66.7% - 96.5% - 96.2%

So, no constant shift.


Level-shifted copy of Version 3 = 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.1% - 96.3% - 100.0% - 97.8% - 69.8% - 100.0% - 100.0%

0.955 x shifted Ver. 3 = 95.5% - 95.5% - 90.8% - 92.0% - 95.5% - 93.4% - 66.7% - 99.5% - 95.5%

Version 3 = 95.5% - 95.5% - 90.9% - 92.0% - 95.5% - 93.4% - 66.7% - 95.5% - 95.5%

Constant shift.


The good news is we end up with the same number of versions when adding in the 23PD and combining Vers. 2 and 3!!

 

Bam: (note the different vertical scale too)



This is exactly lining up the beg and end in Audacity before I do the Plot Spectrum function.

And I know why there was noise before too: both ripped tracks are identical in length, but one is shifted in time to the right a little. The song is almost 7 min long, but Audacity only uses the first 238s or so. So because of that shift, it wasn't looking at exactly the same sections for both the first time, so the freq spectra isn't exactly the same. Hence the noise.

They do line up digitally too, of course. Neat. At least we know why this sometimes happens now!


Black Elk, even though we've discovered stuff along the way from the first posts in the thread, that info is still immensely useful.

 

There can be no arguments now. Great analysis, Kevin!

That still leaves the conundrum of why this was done (not just to Genesis CDs), by whom, and who (if anyone) signed off on these adjustments. Also what did they use to do the shift? DAWs were rather primitive back then.

 

And Then There Were Three:



I need to put up DR's later, but just like for the others, for the older CDs, there isn't a lot of difference.

Just a few comments: The US WEA Atlantic is the same as the WG Target. And as before, the Japanese Black Triangle is bass-lite. Almost looks like they had access to the US WEA/WG Tgt, and only lowered the low end.

I have a 0777 7 ... VC from Holland (with NL in the matrix code). I do like this one the best.

 

Wind & Wuthering. This might actually be my favorite Genesis record of them all.



I only have a sample of the 1st track from the German lp rip, that I don't even know where I got it from. I would be curious to hear the rest some day. It is darker than the US Sanyo (same as the Jpn Sanyo), which is still my favorite. The low end doesn't really take off until below 30 Hz, so I'm not sure how audible this will be on most systems. (So much for longer Genesis lps having the low end rolled off. ) The Jpn Black Triangle is again a little bass-shy, but it actually might sound like it has a little more than the VC due to the peak at 100Hz. The VC has always sounded a little bright to me, vs the Sanyo at least. None of these sound horrible, IMO. To me, for both W&W and ATTWT, where most of the (lack of) bass complaints come from, I think the DEs have too much low end, among other problems.

DR12 ... 01 EEoM Germany vinyl
DR13 ... 01 Eleventh Earl Of Mar BT 32VD
DR13 ... 01 Eleventh Earl of Mar US Sanyo
DR13 ... 01 Eleventh Earl Of Mar VC NL

 

One thing I'll put here. I have too many CDs. There, I said it. But there's a benefit. It's been a few years since I've listened to these, but boy, when you get a good sounding CD, and you can crank it a little, man, it can get emotional, you know? A lot of, heck most of, Genesis's music is just so good. And they had a great run: 1970 to 1983, although it starts to drop (IMO) after 1980.

Why is W&W possibly my favorite? There is a section in "Unquiet Slumbers for the Sleepers…", that just rocks my soul. (In the 2nd part, "…In That Quiet Earth", when that track is split up.)

 

Thanks Kevin. Great contributions, as usual.

 

Dr. M did a bunch of comparisons to vinyl for a few titles, maybe he was your source for W&W?

Your analysis confirms what I have been saying about the Sanyo vs. V/C: they are essentially the same bar the high-frequencies, where the Sanyo sounds low-pass filtered to me, and I prefer the extra 'air' in the V/C (this holds for all such comparisons for me, Duke, Trick, etc.).

There could be other reasons for the higher level of bass on the vinyl rip. Without knowing the ins-and-outs of the turntable, cartridge, etc., etc. it is hard to comment. One would need to see how well the set-up performed reproducing calibrated test signals.

 

^^^ All true, of course. Yeah, maybe Dr M or maybe Jeff, can't remember.

DR's for ATTWT, kind of uneventful:

DR12 ... 01 - Down And Out WEA Atl
DR12 ... 01 Down And Out BT 32VD
DR12 ... 01 Down and out VC NL
DR12 ... 01 Down and Out WG Tgt

Admittedly, just the one song.

 

Playing vinyl on a "normal" turntable will produce infra-bass frequencies, usually below 25Hz or higher if your system is not properly isolated or calibrated.
These frequencies are not on cut onto the vinyl during mastering, they are just a byproduct of the reproduction. Some RIAA pre-amps will cut these frequencies, some will not. They are best filtered out.
They won't usually be reproduced on "normal" speakers, but even then they will infiltrate the audible spectrum, create harmonics that will modify the sound, usually making the bass seem fuller or less-focused.

For your information from a mastering engineer who has mastered vinyl LPs.

 

Guys, I know the DE's are disca non grata mostly. For Abacab though, I've always really liked the DE. Sounds nice and balanced. In fact, it's the only DE I like.
Anyone listen to this issue lately?

 

I like the DE Abacab more than the US non-remaster CD, US vinyl, and the gold disc.

 

I've only ever compared it to the Vertigo 800 044-2 (france pmcd) but I greatly prefer the DE.

 

Is the DE considered the best for Abacab?

 

I don't believe so. I was curious to find out if anyone else likes it.

 

Interesting to see that some are now saying here that they prefer this.

I've not heard that before, generally just W&W being ok in its DE version (which I'm inclined to agree with.)