George Harrison - The Apple Years Box Set (Pt4)

Did he really say that though? I've seen Krause's account summarized similarly before, but he doesn't say he heard only his work, unless he said that somewhere else.

 

It can't be determined with certainty no, and yes I would agree it probably wasn't something Krause was improvising. That's why I said I think it might truly be him, because it seems obvious the performer knows the instrument and what they're doing with it very well. They seem to be very experienced. It would be helpful to know exactly how this demonstration was conducted, as it doesn't sound like someone simply playing live for 25 minutes and nothing more. To my ears there are sounds playing over top one another, and according to some sources I've read, tape loops and other effects may've been applied as well. Since he didn't know he was being recorded, that would imply those things happened later on. Whether that means George added things later on, or he overdubbed various things Krause played overtop one another you can't really tell.

The thing is, on a monophonic synthesizer of this era, you can't just push a button to switch sounds rapidly. You have to stop and re-route the patch cords and change a lot of settings on the various modules to create a new sound. That, and the size and fragile nature of early synths, is why they were rarely used live until the later 70s. On this album they do seem to have been using two keyboards which would've helped, but you can still only play one note at a time on either, and to create as many sounds as we hear on this album I'd think you'd have to stop a few times at least. I could be wrong and I've never played an instrument this old, but I'd be very surprised if this could be a continuous 25 minute live-in-the-studio performance and nothing more. That's why I used a sorta vague phrase like "creative decisions" to describe the fact that I think there had to have been some studio arranging and so forth applied to the recordings after they were made. What exactly that would be though, there's no way to tell for certain. It could be that Bernie's demonstration went on for a couple hours and the results were later combined into the single continuous piece we hear, or that other parts were added by George. But as you say, we can't figure all of this out just by listening, though we can surmise a few things knowing the limitations of the instrument.

Mark

 

OMission accomplished.

 

I agree with most of what you wrote. It's been 20+ years probably since I last listened to ES all the way through, and about 33 years since I last had hands-on experience with a large original Moog of this vintage. I took 3 semesters of electronic music composition in college, and we had one of these original vintage Moogs in the studio. If I recall correctly, in the version we had there was at least one sequencer unit (possibly two or three) that you could program to continuously make a repeating sequence of your sounds, and in addition at the same time produce sound over top of that either with the single finger keyboard, or using switches and control knobs on the multiple sound wave processor modules. I actually rarely used the keyboard because I found I could create much more dense and complex sounding material directly with the module switches and control knobs.

Again, not having listened to ES in so long, and not having any real memory of how complex or not the sounds are, some of what is being heard as multi-tracking may be explained with what I just described.

 

Can we sum up what sounds better on CD by title vs. previous versions:

It seems that most like the early Japanese version CP28, etc. & 2010 download best for ATMP
What about the rest of the titles? There are a lot of pages now and searching getting difficult. Thanks.

 

^^^The previous remaster of LITMW from 2006 is neck and neck in quality with the present 2014 version. It really is a toss up with this one. Arnie

 

By the way, I just received my box today from that great PopMarket deal. I was extremely impressed with their shipping packing-- the box set being still in the individual sealed UNIMUSIC protective box, plus the well cushioned outside shipping box. It would have taken some extraordinary purposeful bad handling for the actual Apple box to get damaged.

I haven't had a chance to listen yet, but the actual box set is an object of real beauty. I do overall still greatly prefer jewel cases like the Dark Horse box used, but those days are long gone unfortunately.

 

There's no such thing as 100% consensus, here or anywhere, but here's how things seem to be leaning:

Electronic Sound: Does it really matter? Nobody has gone very in-depth in comparing the 2014 remaster to the original CD or LP, but nobody's said anything BAD about it either. Seems to be fine.

Wonderwall Music: Almost unanimous praise for the 2014 remaster. Long-time fans of the album have been raving about how good the 2014 sounds.

All Things Must Pass: The 2001 CD remaster is almost universally disliked, and the 2010 digital hi-res remaster is almost universally revered. The new 2014 ATMP is in the middle of these two -- not as harsh or badly EQ'd as the 2001, but louder and more compressed than the 2010. Some have actually expressed a preference for the 2014; most have said that even if they enjoy it for what it is, they still favor the 2010. A few outliers have championed the so-called Japanese CP28; personally I am skeptical of this one, because all I've heard on this forum for more than a decade (including from our host) is that ATMP has NEVER sounded good on CD. But some have said it's close to the 2010. I don't have it.

Living In The Material World: The 2014 remaster might win the "Least Improved" award of all the Apple Years albums -- but only because the 2006 remaster was so good. The two are so close that there's no definite "winner" -- you'll have to listen for yourself. There is one fan out there who swears the 1991 CD is the best-sounding of them all.

Dark Horse: Widespread happiness with the 2014 remaster -- possibly the happiest anyone's EVER been listening to this album. Certainly happier than George was when he made it. Some have said it's not only better than the original CD, but also better than the original VINYL.

Extra Texture: Again, everyone seems to prefer the 2014 remaster to the 1991 CD -- and maybe even to the 1975 LP. Where the old CD was flat and lifeless, the new one has real depth and, um, texture. The CD sleeve has some cool bumps on it too.

 

^^^Sean, you made some great comments in summing up the new CDs. I've put in RED type two of your most amusing comments:

Dark Horse: Widespread happiness with the 2014 remaster -- possibly the happiest anyone's EVER been listening to this album. Certainly happier than George was when he made it. ....

Extra Texture: ... Where the old CD was flat and lifeless, the new one has real depth and, um, texture. The CD sleeve has some cool bumps on it too.

Arnie

 

Thanks so much, very helpful for many fans!

 

Isn't the older Japanese CD of ATMP the same mastering as the older Parlophone/Capitol CD?
If that is the case, then why would people prefer the Japanese disc?

 

Not that it detracts from the improved remastered sound of the new 2014 ATMP CD, but the inclusion of the bonus tracks at the end of CD1 does make for a different listening experience than what was originally intended (that is, if you listen to all of CD1 followed by all of CD2 in one sitting). The 2001 CD also had this problem. But since you can no longer buy the 2010 digital hi-res remaster, that one is not really part of the equation any longer.

Arnie

 

I kind of prefer the original LITMW, the CP28 (but the newest remaster is pretty good and much Improved over the 2001), ET and DH are both superior to the originals IIMHO. ES doesn't matter (its a frisbee as far as I'm concerned) and Wonderwall sounds pretty darn good--Improved over the original IMHO.

 

My understanding is that:

• the CP28 is the same as the UK issue of the early pressings made by Nimbus UK CDP 7 46688-2. Unfortunately, both EMI UK and Capitol USA continued using the same cat no. for later releases and pressings with the no-noise. This disc was issued in the US with both UK and Capitol inserts, but the UK disc in the early days.
• The CP28 was reissued twice in Japan with some level shifted tracks, but otherwise the same. TOCP-TOCP-6956 & 6957 and TOCP-8027 & 8028 from the early 90s.
• The rest are the remaster under the same UK/USA catalog number CDP 7 4688-2

 

I'll never challenge you for Forum Comedian, Arnie, but I can bring the zingers every once in a while!

 

As always, nice summation Sean.

But.. I won't be able to sleep until you decide which version of Electronic Sound brings out the bleeps and bloops with the richness, full body, nice clarity and pleasant highs..(without being too bright, compressed or...over EQ'ed) that I'm going to want, or almost demand from the new disc. As I've posted previously, I own an original Electronic Sound album that is still sealed. I have such..respect for the album that I've waited all these years to hear it properly, lovingly presented in it's optimal sound quality. The music of Bernie Krause demands this sort of release, and deserves your full report, including waveforms, charts, graphs, blind A/B tests (with your mailman and clergy, etc.,) between this version and the other versions, including the eight track tape you play in your car.

 

When you say "the original" LITMW, do you mean the 2006 (the most recent remaster) or the 1991 (the first CD version)? I have to admit, while I was happy to shelve the 1991 CD forever in 2006, there's ONE track on it that I think I might prefer to all the others: "Don't Let Me Wait Too Long." I've never really been happy with that song on CD, and even the otherwise great 2006 and 2014 versions sound kind of boomy and unfocused to me. After really listening to the 1991 for the first time in years, I think it might be my favorite one -- but for that song only.

 

I'm proud to say that I've never owned Electronic Sound in any form until I got this box set -- so I have nothing to compare it with! The bleeps and bloops sound perfectly bleepy and bloopy, and I'm sure if I was chemically impaired I would be transported to another dimension. I did give it two full listens, in the background, on the day I got the box. Sounded fab.

 

And YOU, the big Bernie Krause/George Harrison fan.
Just so I am clear on this: You are saying you played the box? The box itself has some electronic sounds imbedded in it? Wow, if that's the case , my order is going in right now. Thanks for the heads up.

Quick question, as long as we are talking about George's music, I'm wondering: If I get hepatitis right before the next time I listen to 33 1/3, will it enhance my listening experience ? You know, getting closer to exactly the same state as George when he recorded it ? I like to get as close as possible to the artists frame of mind at the time of recording when I listen to music.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/advice on this!

 

Wow, thanks for the info! I envy your experiences. Was hoping someone with hands on experience might chime in.

What you describe might account for some of what I heard. I'm curious, how long a sequence could you construct or chain together? Could you create something longer than a repetitive pattern? Reason I ask is that when listened to ES the other day, I don't recall anything that sounded repetitive. I think I heard the same sounds come in and out over time, but doing something different each time. There wasn't anything particularly 'rhythmic' about the piece really, more like a collage of sounds & effects that fade in and out in a somewhat random manner. Not random in the sense that there wasn't thought put into the arrangement, just no way to really predict what you might hear next.

If you get a chance to listen to it again in the new box set, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

Mark

 

I don't believe this is correct. I have owned the US Captiol cd, the UK "Three-Dot" Nimbus cd, and the CP28. They are all completely different masterings. I, too, was led to believe that a great-sounding digital version of ATMP did not exist until I tracked down the Japanese first cd pressing (CP28). My close friend and fellow audiophile picked up a copy around the same time. I swear to God, our collective jaws hit the floor hard when we hit the play button on the cd player.

Trust me, it was and still is a revelation. The 2010 is equally amazing, but as smooth and balanced as it is, I have never heard Harrison's vocals sound as life-like and natural as they appear on the CP28.

 

In the page you linked, he says "the recording was taken from the Lomax demo session I had played for Harrison only a few months earlier" and "George, this is my music – the same stuff I played while demonstrating the Moog at the Lomax session in LA. Why is it on this tape and why are you representing it as yours?" I take that to mean the track is entirely his work. Otherwise, wouldn't he have said "parts of the recording were taken from the Lomax demo session" and "George, parts of this is my music"? Why would he feel George was misrepresenting the work as his, if George had substantially added to it or changed it?

 

I was amused to come across Electronic Sound in a place of prominence at my local Walmart today. The sticker on the plastic wrap gave some testimony from some guy I had never heard of, but didn't actually say what was on the CD. Nice way to be introduced to the Harrison solo albums.

 

Maybe because this was some 20 years before anyone was using the word "remix" to describe what George did to the original recordings?

Would anybody who has BOTH of these CDs care to make specific comments about which one is better and why? I am skeptical, because I've heard that the 1992 Capitol CD is a fine presentation of that album (DR14, for one thing). I don't own any version of it, myself, and I'm not really interested in getting the new one simply for a latter-day remix of one track.

 

I should have said the 2006.