Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Vinny123, Jun 7, 2018.
My vote is for Sonny's wife. She was the true hottie.
Michael is just so not a banger.
The scene when they first see each other. Dealing with her father. All the time they spent together. Marriage. He teaches her how to drive.
How does this support her being just someone to bang?
You quoted me from page one, I covered this, and then now I am to explain it all again? I stand by my words in the context of which they were written....13 pages ago. The conversation has developed since then. Sorry if I come off a little mean spirited, but please don't take it that way, just dumb founded that this comment comes from out of nowhere.
Sorry. My bad. I know better than to do that. Sometimes I am so pushy. Forgive
It is cool...I do it too. Matter of fact, I specifically do it because I don't want to read 13 pages of stuff. lol The kicker is that I started to reply, then I look back at what I said and then thought...wait a minute, I am starting to write a defense just like I did before. lol
She was hot...and also a drunken floozy -not sure she was "wife" material.
Well I was not commenting on her social skills .....
I haven't read every post, so sorry if this has been addressed...
I just don't think anyone knew. Maybe Tommasino and I really think he just wouldn't say anything.
Michael established his "ask me no questions I'll tell you no lies" badassness already.
DC was so bereft with grief and probably had the cajones not to ask anyway. Maybe a, "How's Michael?", but I doubt much more.
Didn't Don Tommasino owe a duty of care to the Corleone family in general as well as to Michael in particular?
I think he would have said something.
I never got the impression that Tommasino was acting out of duty, per say.
You mean like it was his pay back?
No: it wasn't a contractual matter, more one family (Tommasino) looking after another (Corleone).
It sounds like Fredo provided Johnny Ola with information about Michael's whereabouts (i.e., when he was going to be in the compound, which room he slept in, how many guards were on duty, etc.).
(He also must have been the one who left the curtains open so that the shooters would know which room was Michael's.)
Fredo gave Johnny this info because he thought it would help to close the "big deal" that Hyman Roth was working on.
It was a really, really dumb thing for Fredo to do, for two reasons:
1. Fredo should have known that it was going to be a 'hit' on Michael. I mean, what else do you think Roth is going to do with that information?
2. even if Fredo didn't know it was going to be a hit, he STILL should have known that it was forbidden for him to make 'deals' without Michael's permission. He's been a part of the Corleone operation for his entire life, so he knows exactly how the mafia works. You don't talk to other families without the Godfather's permission, and you sure as hell don't HELP other families, especially when that "help" could hurt your own family in any way.
Nonetheless, I believe that Fredo could have saved himself IF he had come clean IMMEDIATELY after the hit. But he LIED to Mike, which was something that couldn't be forgiven.
Yes. For sure...
This is what I think. The woman Michael loved was killed, but as head of a family he needed to present an image that included having a wife and children. Michael wasn't one to go out carousing. Once he was back in New York and had assumed control of the family, he needed a wife and knew that he could manipulate Kay into fulfilling that job. I think him going to Kay was as much laziness as anything else. Instead of looking for another woman to love, he went to one he had an established relationship with and closed it like a business deal. He didn't have to woo her, he just said the right words. Wife needed, wife acquired. I'm not saying he never had any affection for Kay, but I don't think he ever really loved her at all. Did he ever have a mistress or show any interest in women at all? While some might see him not having a mistress as being faithful to Kay, I don't think it was out of love or respect for her, it was because he just didn't have interest or desire for women anymore. What love he had to give to a woman died with Apollonia.
Agree with much of that, but I think he loved Kay as much as he loved Apollonia. The difference is that he was in a more challenging place and time by then, with life and death matters at hand. He was a bit more carefree and adventurous while hiding out in Sicily. By the time he was back in New York, he was already getting stressed out with tough decisions facing him, and establishing his reputation as a Don who no one should cross. Sadly, Kay did not respect the tremendous dilemmas he faced where there was only the best of bad decisions to be made. And she judged him for those bad decisions in a way Apollonia never would have.
I hate to divert back to Fredo, but here is the Moe Greene scene. My comments are in brackets and bolded:
MICHAEL *as Moe sits down*: My credit good enough to buy you out?
MOE *laughs, and so does Fredo who massages Moe's back*: Buy me out?
[Notice this is after Mike just told Fredo in private that he would buy Greene out]
MICHAEL: The casino...the hotel. Corleone Family wants to buy you out.
MOE *angry*: The Corleone Family wants to buy me out? No. I buy you out, you don't buy me out.
MICHAEL: Your casino loses money. Maybe we can do better...
MOE: You think I'm skimmin' off the top, Mike?
MICHAEL: You're unlucky
MOE *standing, angrily laughs*: You &^%$ guineas really make me laugh. I do you a favor and take Freddie in when you're having a bad time, and then you try to push me out!
MICHAEL: Wait a minute. You took Freddie in because the Corleone Family bankrolled your casino because the Molinari Family on the Coast guaranteed his safety. Now we're talking business. Let's talk business...
MOE: Yeah let's talk business, Mike. First of all, you're all done. The Corleone Family don't even have that kind of muscle anymore. The Godfather's sick, right? You're getting chased out of New York by Barzini and the other Families. What do you think is going on here? You think you can come to my hotel and take over? I talked to Barzini. I can make a deal with him, and still keep my hotel!
MICHAEL: Is that why you slapped my brother around in public?
[This statement regains power for Michael, catching Greene off guard, and stands up for the family]
FREDO: Aw now that...that was nothin', Mike. Now uh Moe didn't mean nothin' by that. Sure he flies off the handle once in a while, but Moe and me we're good friends, right Moe? Huh?
[Fredo defends Greene against Michael's accusations]
MOE: I gotta business to run. I gotta kick &%$% sometimes to make it run right. We had a little argument, Freddy and I, so I had to straighten him out...
MICHAEL: You straightened my brother out?
MOE: He was banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! Players couldn't get a drink at the table! What's wrong with you?
MICHAEL *collecting his things from the table before he stands*: I leave for New York tomorrow. Think about a price.
MOE *angry*: Do you know who I am? I'm Moe Greene! I made my bones when you were going out with cheerleaders!
FREDO: Wait a minute, Moe...Moe, I got an idea...*to Tom* Tom...Tom, you're the Consiglieri and you can talk to the Don – you can explain...
[Fredo tries to go over Michael's head in the middle of his negotiations?!]
TOM: Just a minute now – the Don is semi-retired and Mike is in charge of the Family business now. If you have anything to say, say it to Michael.
FREDO *after Moe storms out*: Mike! You don't come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Greene like that!
[Reprimands Michael, and sides with Moe Greene again!]
MICHAEL: Fredo – you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.
Fredo does not come off well in this episode at all in my opinion.
No, he doesn't, not one bit. And, hey, what can you say? Michael did warn him. Fredo was not on the Corleone's side and I'm inclined to think he never was as long as Michael was the Don.
To be fair to Fredo this was probably all a bit bewildering. He finds out at very short notice that the intention is to buy the casino and move the family to Nevada. Michael then basically tells Moe Greene he is buying him out of his own casino (admittedly bankrolled by the Corleone family) and makes it clear he won't take no for an answer.
Imagine how all this must feel for Fredo, his kid brother comes in and basically turns his world upside down - sounds like Fredo was having a good time out there - and in Fredo's eyes just p****ed off a very dangerous man who had the respect of a lot of powerful people.
I don't think Fredo was against Michael, certainly not at this point, but I think he severely underestimated him. He most likely was thinking Michael was making a terrible mistake taking on Moe Greene like this.
As to why Fredo didn't know about any of this prior to the meeting can only mean Michael AND Vito didn't trust him to keep his mouth shut - the Don is still alive at this point and whilst semi-retired there is no way a move of this magnitude and the approach to it would not be approved by him.
So I can kind of understand Fredo's reaction, I don't say he was right but it does make sense in the circumstances.
What would have made sense is that Michael invite Fredo home with him so he could see and talk to the Don in person, but we don't see that in the film (not sure in the novel).
Note I call Vito the Don whilst he is still alive - up until the point when Clemenza calls Michael the Don at the end of the first film. I don't class Michael as the Don until then.
I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, and this came from years of eroded confidence. Of course Fredo might have been looking out for the family too.
You see, to understand Moe Green and Fredo is to understand that Fredo being the second oldest brother is well aware of the closeness that Green had to Roth who was also close to Vito. Matter of fact, let us also remember the way that Roth chewed out Michael when he spoke of Moe Green being wacked.
Fredo massaging Moe Green's back is very cringe worthy and I am not thinking that Fredo was without being in the wrong at all.
What I do know is that there are lots of ways the situation could have been handled and #1 on the list is getting Fredo out of that situation. This is a key part of the misguided leadership role of Michael. A man that inherited wealth and power, but didn't really earn it. In Fredo's eyes this was the case, and for good reason. Even Frank warned Michael that getting too close to Roth was not a good idea and Fredo being a liability should have been seen a lot earlier. For Michael to be all surprised about Fredo is to be blind to the ways of the family relationships. Michael didn't care or understand the relationships, and other knew it. The killing of Moe was the start of the crumbling of every relationship around.
It is this aspect where I feel sorry for Michael, because in lots of ways this is where he does have some feelings shown in regards to his brother. The problem is that the motto "it's not personal" was so misused that not only was he parroting his dad on the "we're gonna make him an offer..." with Moe Green...but also parroting the ideology that wacking your brother should be treated like any other employee. But the real thing, and I mean the real thing to consider is the fact that even with Tessio some thought was put into it. Michael makes the remark that Tessio was the smart one. Yet he doesn't think for a moment that Fredo is perhaps the dumb one?
As I said before, a sledge hammer to a fly swatter party. He wacked Fredo out of hate and emotion alone. Now do I think this translates over true love for a brother. NO.
By the way, anyone remember that Richard Pryor routine comparing Tessio/Tom Hagan death ride to relationships. I love that one and couldn't help but think of it. Just can't place when I heard it.
The really sad thing is that Fredo was obviously a nice guy, maybe easily lead astray but I don't think he ever meant real harm to anybody. To people in that world he was deemed weak, even Vito calls him weak. He just didn't belong in that world. Vito had always planned for Michael to not be involved in the family business but it just didn't work out that way...
The sadness of Fredo is always tinged for me with the sadness of John Cazale passing away so young - what a fantastic actor he was.
Connie’s plea for Fredo always gets me too.
I don't think Michael hated Fredo. But for sure there was a lot of emotion involved. I think there is a lot of anger in Michael, bubbling around just under the surface that every now and again boils over (slapping Kay for example).
If we think about it Michael's world has been turned upside down. We first see him in his uniform, seems a reasonably nice guy, with his wife to be Kay. A typical American couple some might say. He has no intention of going down the path his older brothers have and wants to make his own way in life. Then there is the hit on his father and then the attempted second hit and from that point his destiny is defined. His life completely changes and he commits murder to protect his father (Sollozo and McCluskey).
Michael then has to leave America, his family, his wife to be, behind. He doesn't know for sure how long he will be away, even if he will ever be able to return.
He starts to accept the life in Sicily and meets a girl who he marries and she is taken away from him. By a traitor to him, who was close to him. A bitter lesson learned which perhaps explains why Michael becomes so ruthless and perhaps paranoid later on.
When he returns to America he is now, by default, in line to be the next Don. Sonny is dead, Fredo is not up to the job.
Maybe some of the pent up anger and frustrations is at the position he is in, which he never set out to be in. Maybe he looks at Fredo and thinks you should be doing this but you are not strong enough, why should I be here? I'm supposed to be the kid brother getting looked after. So Fredo resents Michael been the Don and Michael, just maybe, resents Fredo for not been capable of stepping up to the plate.
The episode with Moe Greene is forgivable. And Fredo is forgiven- with a stern warning.
It is human nature to overcompensate and do irrational things when your ego is pilloried. Fredo, like Carlo before him, does not like being treated 2nd class, yet knows deep down it is justified. But the little monster inside keeps pushing him to distinguish himself. And then he "bumps into Johnny Ola"( i.e. Ola sets up an accidental meeting)and the rest is history.
Yeah, me too. Particularly when you know what is coming
Poor Fredo was doomed to be marginalized from the moment the Don was gunned down in front of him and he didn't react, or should I say did not react like you would expect a member of the Corelone Mafia family would.
Imagine if Sonny had been there...
Separate names with a comma.