Grado or Denon Carts?

Oh god. Please don't make me revisit the Denon DL-103....again. I don't need to hear that! I've tried the DL-103 with a variety of tonearms and SUTs, but admittedly never went super experimental with loading. Nevertheless, the magical attributes of the 103 and 103R were not lost on me. I am a fan. I was never able to get the zingy, forward upper mids to relax. Are you saying that you have, and if so, would you be kind enough to prove it with some comparison A/B sound clips between cd, your DL-103, and, perhaps, your Grado?

 

Sure! Let's see what you think...

Denon DL-103, loaded at 91 ohms [Denon specs 100 ohms - close enough!]
'61 Thorens TD-124 w/Jelco SA750D arm
'59 Fisher X-100 phono stage
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39332736/Grado samples/BJT-TD124_DL103.aiff

'84 Grado Signature 8MR (potted) w/8MZ stylus
c.'63-'64 Acoustic Research AR-TX (early AR-XA) w/ Marc Morin mods
'59 Fisher X-100 phono stage
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39332736/Grado samples/BJT-AR-8MR-8MZ.aiff

NOTE: My needledropping set-up is not the best; I only have a cheap Behringer AD converter into a Macbook running Audacity.

 

Well, I can hear the husky, subtly grainy coarseness in the vocal with the Grado, which is about right, and I hear the liquidity and palpable quality of the Denon. But I still hear the splashiness of the DL-103 and it's obviously brighter than the Grado. I think these needle drops sound great, but the carts probably aren't for me. Thank you for posting these!

 

As an unabashed Denon fan, I can't say that I've ever found them to sound lean or overly bright, but with all the variables involved, who can rule out what someone hears? To the OP, if you enjoy the Denon DL-110, there are 2 good choices for retipping in the U.S. that I can recommend: Soundsmith and Andy Chong. Have them put on their basic elliptical, and you're good for another round of listening.

The only Grado I've heard more than once is their top-of-the-line Statement1, and I thought it sounded absolutely wonderful, but is very expensive (no more so than their competitors' offerings, though): rich, warm, and grainless. It wouldn't be so for everyone's ears.

Action Pact, I enjoyed the 'drops, and unsurprisingly liked the Denon more than the lower-range Grado. I didn't see in your profile how you're boosting the signal - step-up or active?

 

My Reference Platinum Statement tracks very well on my Rega RB250 and sounds wonderful too.

 

of the audio clips posted there is definitely a difference in sound. The snares sound rich and full with the Denon and the Grado seems subdued.

 

I load my DL103 at 250 and it's just right. I own the Grado w/8mz stylus as well. It just doesn't have the inner detail as the 103.

 

I've mostly had experience with Sumiko stuff. But between a few sumiko carts I owned a DL-110. I really liked that cart. It was also my first HOMC. I went to the blue point no.2 after it. In retrospect, I still think the denon was superior. I have a blue point evo iii now, which I like. But if my tonearm could handle it, I'd be using a 103r right now.

 

DL-110!! Hands down.

 

I'm using an SUT with Shure transformers.

 

Tizzy and fuzzy in the highs? Unacceptably bright? Grado? Seriously?

Forgive me for assuming your setup job wasn't very good...

They may not be to your taste, but saying that they suck and that, unequivocally, they are a step back from a Denon cart is ridiculous and unfair.

I have a Gold that is a fine tracker (not great admittedly). The Gold gets a lot of flack on the web, and when I first put it on I agreed. After a little break-in and fiddling with the alignment it sounds great. It's not on a low-mass arm, either.

It's got the magic mids, for sure. Put on something like the first Tracy Chapman and go for a swim in the vocals.

 

Both of these needledrops sound very nice. You're getting way more out of that Grado than I ever was able to.

Great job.

 

Thanks! Marc Morin, who souped up my AR by mass-loading the suspension/pulley and upgrading the arm and platter bearings, is also a Grado cart authority. His modded AR's are the perfect complement for Grado carts. In fact, my 8MR body came from his collection.

Incidentally, my local stereo dealer examined my 8MZ stylus and told me it was due for replacement... so that might explain the "tizzy highs" that @ArdenHiFi commented on.

I have a more advanced MCZ stylus here as well... I'll plug that in (and lower the loading to 24k) and prepare another file for evaluation. The 8MR/MCZ combination is supposedly comparable in performance to a modern Sonata.

 

How can you not hear this? It's so obvious. I can hear it on my Audioengine computer speakers from the sound clips posted above. Can you not hear the difference between the sound of the vocals...the liquidity of the Denon vs the subtle grainy coarseness of the Grado? All Grados suffer from the issues I stated. You can even see it on paper! Take a look, and don't bother talking about loading, because Grados are not sensitive to loading the way most MM carts are. Here's the Grado sound....bump in the lower mids, then roll off and depression...voila! Warmth! Then a nice little spike in the highs to add some sparkle and detail. But the cartridge doesn't track very well, none of them do, and so the highs never sound natural. Here's what your precious Gold is up to:



Grados are cartridges for newbies and amateurs who want to spend a small amount of money to add a little magic to their system. But the discerning, experienced ear can spot the gimmickry and lack of refinement right away. They're just not good enough. It's a mediocre, possibly even sub-mediocre, product with a doctored frequency response. Their headphones measure even worse.

I forgive you.

Not at all. Denon cartridges, even with their own brightness issues, bring so much to the table in terms of performance and refinement, they handsomely destroy Grado by miles.

Ha! See? You admit it!

If you want to use a Grado Gold and you love the sound, awesome! You don't need my approval. I'm just over here telling the truth about what the cartridge really is and what it does. Magic mids...see above. Your "when I first put it on I agreed" comment is making this start to sound like you trying to convince yourself that the Gold is better than it really is.

 

No, the sound you hear in your clips is typical Grado. As I said, listen to the vocal with the Denon that you posted. You'll hear the quality of ease, flow, and liquidity. It sounds very real and alluring. That's real magic midrange. Then listen to the Grado clip. The vocal sounds like it's made of cardboard and sandpaper by comparison. The cartridge is darker, but that doesn't mean magic mids. The Denon is the superior cartridge. And FYI, the Sonata has the same issue. It's just brighter and has less of the doctored warmth of the Prestige line.

 

I'm not stepping back. My Reference Platinum Statement is a very good tracker, no issues what so ever and I love the sound. You pin point what Grado have done to achieve the "Grado sound" as if it is the revalation of the century. ANY cart has it's own characteristics. If 100% neutral is what you want there's one out there for you I'm sure. If a lift in the top end is what you want there's lots out there I should think. Why do you feel the need to almost ridicule Grado (and Grado owners) by putting them down as you do? It's just a sound signature for crying out loud. Some like it, some don't. But bright and annatural highs? I'm not hearing it.

 

Fair enough. Maybe I'm going overboard. Really what it is is just a dramatic and highly technical way of me saying that I don't like Grado. I've been sitting here listening to different cartridges for a couple hours tonight, decided to blow through some of the evaluation pile, and I actually thought about this thread and was moved to take a break, log in, and say that there is obviously way more to the sound of a cartridge than the tonal balance. There are mystical qualities that are beyond my understanding. For example, I love a warm sound and I love full bass. Cartridge A may have the tonal balance I'm looking for, while it also may have a hardness or etched quality to the sound. Cartridge B, by comparison, may be brighter, but there is a softness and liquidity to the way the information is presented. Why is this? Tracking ability, perhaps? Using the test record to test that possibility, and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. I've thought I could narrow it down and make generalizations such as all moving iron cartridges have this sonic quality, moving magnets have that sonic quality, and so on, but no. They're all just different animals.

So back to Grado...I really wanted to like Grado. I've paid my Grado dues. I even used an old wood Grado tonearm for a long time! But I swear to you, sometimes a cartridge can sound really amazing and you think it's tracking well and doing what you want it to do and it's only by direct A/B comparison to another cartridge that you realize, oh no! And that's what's happened with Grado. The glaring shortcomings stare you right in the face. That's been my experience, anyway. When I get frustrated is when I hear these things and I spend hours and hours chasing them down, different speakers, different amps, different tonearms, hell...one time I had three different turntables going at once...and then other people don't know what I'm talking about and they don't hear what I'm hearing and then the arrogance kicks in and I get all passionate and probably come off like a major jerk. That's not my intention. I'm really, only trying to help.

I am not looking for a flat cartridge. I hate flat cartridges. I want one that is doctored, warm, and colored. I think the Grado bass hump and roll off is a grand idea. If they could find away to get rid of the grainy, artificial sounding highs, the iffy tracking, and the little bit of added 'sparkle', I'd use one for sure. According to legend, they are exactly what I'm looking for. Oh well.

 

It really is very strange. What you want in a cartridge is what I think I'm having with the Platinum (pretty much). Easy to listen to while exiting. NO tracking issues (it's there with the Prestige Gold). You tried the Sonata and the Platinum, were they Statement models? They are supposed to be better trackers than the high output versions.

 

No, I tried the high output version. Would love to try one of the Statement models if it's what you say it is.

 

Well, to be precise, the Reference Platinum Statement is to me what my ears tell me it is . I love it.

 

This is absolutely incorrect. I have to load down the 8MR body when using the MCZ stylus due do the difference in the inductance of the 8MR and the native MCZ body. 47k is waaaay too bright with the 8MR body and MCZ stylus. The G1 and G2 cartridges of the early '80s need to be loaded at around 8-10k per Grado's specs.

Perhaps you're confusing resistive loading and capacitive loading (which Grados are not sensitive to).

 

The 8MZ stylus for me is a necessity to make the Grado sonically palatable. It is a major upgrade and gets the Grado close sonically to my beloved Stanton 681 EEE albeit less ruggedly. At that level and higher, I get why the Grados are beloved. In Denon, the DL-103 is for me the most sensible MC choice or a DL-102 for mono.

 

Arden: If you could not get the Denon Dl-103 to tame the zingy upper mids/highs, then you did not load it to accomplish that. With the correct loading this cart is marvelous. The Denon Dl-110 is Also a great sounding cart, and for under $200 its a tremendous audio giant killer.

I think the Dl-110 is probably the best cart in the 0-$300 range one could ever buy.

 

I cannot hear that because I, cursed with the affliction of being human, cannot hear data plots. I reckon that would've made my university calculus courses much more exciting. In other words, I'm really sorry that that plot is so abhorrent. Care to post one for your beloved Denon? Then perhaps we can send both to Grado so they can see what adjustments they should make to ensure better measurement. Which is what it's all about.

While you're at it, I'd also be interested in a plot of your Audioengine speakers. And your amplification. If it's not too much trouble, could you do your tonearm leads while you're off measuring? Surely those, being so close to the cartridge, would have a dramatic impact on its sound signature.

You may think that, but there's no way you can make it a proven objective blanket statement.

I'm not asking for your approval. I'm simply pointing out that despite what your plots are purportedly showing, our experiences with Grado cartridges have been quite different and that it is unfair, frankly, to make a blanket statement denouncing every one of their products as "overrated" and "handsomely destroy(ed) by miles (by Denon)".

Wrong. I'm asserting that over time I have noticed positive change in the sound of the cartridge, and offering it as a potential reason you were less than smitten with the cartridges you tried on initial installation.

All I'm asking is that you communicate your feelings towards Grado cartridges (and anything in audio, really) without bias. That obviously isn't the case here, and does everyone reading this thread a serious disservice.

 

Beautiful man. I bet that Fisher and TD124/103 combo sound awesome.