Gram Parsons and "Cosmic American Music"

So glad people mention Mike Nesmith. I'd have to look at some timelines to see how Nez fit into the county-rock movement vs Dylan and Byrds.
Like, where did these Country influences begin? But as I just commented on a Monkees thread, when I was really young I disliked what I thought was Country Music.
As a worldly-wise 11 year old hearing the album Deja Vu for the first time, I was appalled hearing a pedal steel on the second song of the record -- and that's after suffering through what I thought was a female singer on the first !
But previous to all this, I loved the Monkees, and Mike's songs were just a little more legitimate. They weren't big important statements, and they weren't simple silliness.
And he was the only one who looked like he might actually know how to play his instrument. Not that Peter couldn't, but he tended to bop around so much, even my 6-7 year old mind could tell he was dancing more than playing.
When I "out-grew" the Monkees, I relegated Nez as a minor player in the music pantheon, but with time I come to respect him more and more, and I'd like to visit his catalog more deeply.

 

I actually have all of his records, not so much a diss but disappointment that he never managed to consistently execute ideas that frankly artists who followed him did better. I like him just fine but find him slightly overhyped

 

It is worth noting that Elvis never publicly made any statements about how he felt the Beatles or drugs/counterculture in general were damaging to America. In fact, he never publicly criticized the Beatles in any way, but instead covered their songs and praised them onstage. So his attitudes about the Beatles or the counterculture did not affect the influence he had on the public, because those attitudes did not become public knowledge until years after his death.

It's also a stretch to say he was "supportive" of Nixon. Elvis met with Nixon once, because he wanted to get a badge from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics (he collected badges). The stuff he said to Nixon was in large part intended to kiss Nixon's asss and tell him what he thought he'd want to hear, so Nixon would give him the badge. Elvis never campaigned for Nixon, never publicly voiced any support for him, and (according to his friends) did not vote. For that matter, he did not ever publicly make any political statements. In 1972 the public was aware that he was photographed with Nixon, but the details of his meeting with Nixon did not become public knowledge until years later anyway. Being photographed with Nixon does not make him a Nixon supporter.

A performer's views and principles certainly can affect their music. But in Elvis' case they either did not, or his principles and views were not exactly what you've suggested they were. Because Elvis did not record any songs that had a reactionary, judgmental, or conservative point of view. To the contrary, he recorded several songs about social injustice and or that suggested tolerance and inclusiveness. In terms of racial equality he led by example with a fully integrated band, and he recorded songs across the spectrum of genres. The message conveyed in Elvis' music is just as inclusive and progressive as anything in Parsons' music. And as I've noted, his cultural standing during his lifetime was not affected by any of the more reactionary views that he might have harbored, because they were not public knowledge nor reflected in his music.

 

When I hear that term, I can only think of one album that fits. Everything else just hints at it including Gram's music alone and with others.

 

I think Gram's use of the term "cosmic" was something of a misnomer, but that he did it deliberately to counter the prevalent view amongst his peers that country music was square. His music wasn't "cosmic" in the sense one would expect from that term (ie psychedelic, trippy, free-form, etc). I think it was mainly just a rhetorical scheme to make country seem cooler.

 

The Fantastic Expedition of Dillard & Clark (1968) is pretty much untouchable "Cosmic Americana" genius.

 

That's how I view Gram's use of the term, more or less. The musicians he was hanging with in California and the West Coast probably looked down upon classic Country music as a regional Nashville thing.

 

I agree. I visited the motel and the room where he died. At first I thought it was a cool thing to do but I later regretted it.

 

Why did you regret it? Ghosts? I've heard they can't be sure of which room he actually passed in though.

 

Just kind of sad and morbid. I guess because of his age as well.
I thought it was well established he died in Room #8. That is what the owner told me that most of the folks involved have claimed.

 

From my perspective your view of Elvis is slanted by your admiration for his music. The quote I included in my previous post was from Time Magazine, so I would count that as rather public.

In any event to ignore that at the time Elvis was seen, whether rightly or wrongly from your point of view, as politically conservative is so much revisionism. In my opinion.

You've had your say on this, and I merely disagree with it.

 

I agree that appears to be part of why he used the term, but would add he was also referring to the parts of his music that were not within the country genre. In that sense I disagree with inclusion of the word bolded above.

 

You are misunderstanding the distinction between public and private statements. A public statement is one made in an interview or press release (or these days, on twitter). A private statement is one made from one individual to another in a private setting, which is not intended to be widely disseminated to the public. Elvis' statements to Nixon were private statements, not intended by him to be shared with the public. The fact that they were later made public does not change the fact that they were private statements.

The more important point is that those private statements were not made public until years after Elvis' death. Your Time Magazine article is from 2017, and its source (Egil Krogh's memo) was first made public in the 80s IIRC. In 1970, there were no news accounts which described the discussion Elvis and Nixon had in their meeting. None of the details of that meeting were made public until after Elvis had died. So again, during Elvis' lifetime, the public was not aware he held any negative attitudes toward the Beatles and the counterculture of the day. During Elvis' lifetime, his attitudes about the Beatles and drugs did not influence the public's perception of him, because the public was not aware of those attitudes.

The problem is that you are not making a statement of opinion, you are making a statement of fact ("Elvis was seen... as politically conservative" in the early 70s). Yet you've cited no evidence to support this assertion. And as I've noted, Elvis never made any public statements that were political, nor did he ever release music with politically conservative lyrics, nor was any information about his more reactionary ideas known to the general public at that time. So it appears you are the one engaging in revisionism, making a factual claim that is not supported by evidence.

 

First of all this Elvis/Nixon thing is a huge digression from what is a thread about Gram Parsons.

The picture of Elvis shaking Nixon's hand was all the evidence people needed as to where he stood at the time. It was a public statement. A picture is worth a thousand words.

As a big Elvis fan I assume you have read his letter to Nixon. Elvis WAS politically conservative.

Now, back to Gram Parsons...

 

Johnny Cash was also photographed with Nixon in the Oval Office around the same time. So was Ray Charles. There are also photos of Count Basie shaking hands with Nixon. Do you think the public perceived all of them as politically conservative?

If there was any widespread belief that Elvis was politically conservative, Rolling Stone and the other rock press outlets would have gone after him with a vengeance. Can you cite any writing from that time suggesting that was the case?

As I've said, Elvis had some socially reactionary ideas, but in general was politically indifferent. And again, the public was not aware of any of his reactionary ideas.

You're right that this is a digression, but it's relevant as it speaks to whether or not Elvis' work is "cosmic american music." I think it is, and I think Parsons would agree.

 

The only people who didn't hate the counterculture was the counterculture.
Elvis takes pic with Nixon
Gram has a marijuana Nudie suit
Signs, signs, everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery, breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

 

Well dying tends to do that. But seriously, we should never put artists on a pedestal. But we do it all the time and it makes it very hard to be objective. I love Parsons but the he was certainly not fully developed as a songwriter, performer and artist. He was a work in progress that unfortunately came to an abrupt halt.

 

I'm more confused after reading the article. I don't see how his examples fit together. It would seem to me the work of Jerry Jeff Walker fits better than many of his examples and not sure how John Hartford fits in. If Hartford does fit in then what about The Bluegrass Alliance, New Deal String Band or New Grass Revival? But I think this is a mountain out of a mole hill. Parsons it appears to me was just trying to give the media a name for his music.

 

Gram and many of the artists he influenced are really good but always thought that was a poor label for music that’s so earthy. Early Pink Floyd is cosmic, Gram Parsons isn’t

 

I second this! Epitomizes the phrase more'n any LP ever

 

Most of Gram's songs were co-writes and many of his best have been co-written with Chris Hillman. I've always observed that Parsons gets all the praise and credit for those songs and that seems to be unfair to Hillman. If Parsons was a creative force (and he was) why so little love of Hillman? Usually you see Hillman presented as someone that was there while great things were happening but little about his major contributions.

Change Is Now Chris Hillman, Roger McGuinn
Christine's Tune (Devil in Disguise) Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman
Cody, Cody Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman, Bernie Leadon
Draft Morning Chris Hillman, Roger McGuinn, David Crosby
Girl with No Name Chris Hillman
Have You Seen Her Face Chris Hillman
High Fashion Queen Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman
It Doesn't Matter Chris Hillman, Stephen Stills
Juanita Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman
Long Long Time Chris Hillman, Rick Roberts
My Uncle Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman
Older Guys Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman, Bernie Leadon
Sin City Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman
So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star Chris Hillman, Roger McGuinn
Story of Love Chris Hillman, Steve Hill
Summer Wind Chris Hillman, Steve Hill
Thoughts and Words Chris Hillman
Time Between Chris Hillman
Wheels Gram Parsons, Chris Hillman

 

One further comment. I did some research about when the picture of Elvis and Nixon was first made public. Based on what is said in this article, it was in the early 80s. If that is the case, then that picture most definitely did not affect the public's perception of Elvis during his lifetime. I certainly don't remember seeing that picture anytime in the 70s, nor anyone talking about it, so I would tend to think the article is correct. So again, whatever the Nixon meeting and photo imply about Elvis' political or social beliefs, none of that was public knowledge in the early 70s.

 

Everyone loves Hillman. But he’s a nice guy, and he didn’t die young. Also, he doesn’t self promote. So no myth-making.

 

I think part of it is that Hillman intentionally stayed in the background. In the Burritos he took the Phil Everly role and allowed Parsons to sing lead on all their co-writes. In Manassas he seemed to be happy in the "second in command" role. It wasn't until the 80s and the DRB that he finally seemed comfortable being a front man.

 

I just found this interview with Hillman from a couple of months ago:
The Byrds' Chris Hillman On The Birth Of Country Rock, Tom Petty And The Death Of The '60s

He mentions Jerry Garcia playing pedal steel on the CSN song, I wonder if he knew that it was sharing a bill with the Burritos and watching Sneaky Pete in April of 69 that caused Garcia's interest in the steel guitar to go from curiosity to commitment?

Also funny, he wants to collaborate with Iron Maiden or Slayer.