Greg Ginn, SST and rescuing bands' catalogs

I've searched through a lot of threads here and Googled much, but I've still never read anything definitive that explains what the deal is with the SST bands who haven't been able to get their catalogs back.

I have heard a lot about it having to do with Greg Ginn being a cad, but nothing that really lays out what happened. Can anyone enlighten me? Is it true that Greg Ginn is somehow perniciously holding back the rights from these bands, or is that just a misinformed rumor?

 

I don't know what the dealio with Ginn is, but as you probably know the problem with Husker Du is less to do with Ginn and much to do with the band itself. The three former band members have to agree on an approach to reclaiming their recordings and what to do with them afterwards, and they've never been able to come to an agreement. One would think it wouldn't be so difficult after all these years, but some resentments run deep...

 

If you want a better view of Husker Du's history check out this book.



The contempt that all the members have for each other would seem to be a lot of their issues not respective of Greg Ginn. Depending on who you ask Mr. Ginn can be a problematic person to contend with. If you read Henry Rollins book Get In The Van that despite admiring his work ethic Rollins had a fairly intense dislike of Ginn. Meanwhile at the best someone like Mike Watt is ambivalent at best about Ginn. Would it be unfair to perhaps describe Greg Ginn as perhaps vindictive, ego maniacal, and micro manager of what he views as his creation, which would include the tie up of a certain amount of the SST catalog?

 

I read that book, and Bob Mould's book, but well before that it was clearly established that these guys had major problems with each other, so that part of it isn't a mystery.

I had heard that somehow Ginn had partaken in some kind of shadiness, which had resulted in bands likeHusker Du and the Minutemen being unable to regain the rights to their catalogs, but it was all rumor and innuendo and I've never heard anything concrete other than his name being brought up. But I guess this is how rumors get started, especially substance-free ones.

 

I've never heard anything about the two surviving Minutemen being unsatisfied with their catalog being on SST. The Meat Puppets and Dinosaur Jr have had no problem reissuing their catalog on other labels.

Hüsker Dü are the only ones I know of who've mentioned major problems with SST. Both Hart and Mould have complained that they are not receiving the royalties that they should for the back catalog. As noted above, the reason they haven't been able to mount a legal challenge to this is that they cannot agree to work together. At one point Mould told the others he would only do it if they would agree to sell him their rights to the catalog, and he offered an insultingly low amount. Given the unique qualities of the personalities involved and the deep-seated animosities, I think it's unlikely they'll ever come to an agreement to work together on this.

 

A few quick internet searches revealed the following . . .

1.
Henry Rollins has complaints about missing royalties as well:

2.
Sonic Youth and the Meat Puppets are mentioned in the following sentence at the Wikipedia entry for SST Records:

The source for that information is cited as being from page 496 of an unidentified Michael Azerrad book, but I assume it's referring to Our Band Could Be Your Life (Little Brown. 2001. ISBN 0-316-78753-1).

My copy of that book is boxed away in a garage, otherwise I'd check it.

3.
The Descendents sued Greg Ginn for unpaid royalties and settled out of court in 2006.

4.
Dinosaur Jr. is among the bands cited in an online article as leaving the SST label at least in part due to a royalties dispute.

More extensive internet searches would probably reveal more references to additional SST bands that complained about royalties treatment. Anyone else want to help search and contribute some links/quotes to articles?

Craig.

 

I stand corrected on that point. It does stand to reason that SST would not exclusively screw over HD, so the examples you cite are not surprising. I'm curious though if Watt or Hurley has ever mentioned having a problem with SST? It seems like they would have no problem extricating their catalog if they did, given the numerous examples of others who've been able to do so. Yet they haven't.

 

i'm curious about why ginn continues to keep certain back catalog releases in print but not others. thinking of saint vitus and screaming trees to name two

 

Now that I think about it, a big problem with SST in its latter days was that Ginn was using incoming royalties to subsidize a bunch of releases by his friends and pet projects like October Faction, Tom Troccoli's Dog, and Painted Willie - stuff with sales potential in the double digits. Plus, as I recall it, almost everybody in the SST office (Ginn included) was a major pothead, which contributed more than a little to their financial/administrative disarray and poor signing decisions.

 

I still remember being the producer/host of my own radio show in college, and getting a promo copy of a CD from a group called Fatso Jetson, seeing it was on SST, wanting to play the CD on the air just because it was on SST, and ultimately being unwilling to subject my listeners to that dire, bad music. O how the mighty had fallen...

 

I remember hearing back that the makers of one of the Tony Hawk games wanted a Descendents song in one of the games but SST (Ginn) would not even return their calls. Bill Stevenson created a new version of it to get it in the game. I think he may have played everything himself and used a vocal track that wasn't used before from the time of the original recording.

When interviewed about royalties he doesn't say much other than that they get extremely little. There was a recent interview from a year or two ago online. It's a shame considering that Milo Goes To College is on many top 10 Punk lists.

 

Negativland seem to have nothing but loathing for Greg Ginn's business practices. And severe regret for ever having agreed to sign with SST.

But they have been able to get the rights to their albums back, so....

 

In the recent book Too High to Die: Meet the Meat Puppets, Curt Kirkwood says he never signed a contract for any of the SST records. It was punk rock and all done on a handshake. When a lawsuit nearly came about but was settled pre-trial, Curt agreed to give SST the last MP record, Monsters, and license the previous ones for seven years. When the time was up, SST claimed they couldn't find any of the masters. Curt claims he remastered the Ryko reissues from the original CDs.

In the same chapter, Mike Watt refused to comment on SST since they are still issuing the Minutemen catalog.

Also, according to Grant Hart, only one member of Husker Du ever signed their contracts.

 

For what it's worth, in the last issue of Mojo (the annual Beatles cover issue) Hart seems to indicate that he and Mould might actually have made enough of a peace to get their masters back: "We decided to bring suit against SST. ... (W)e decided, OK, we're going to get everything due to us. We're going to get the catalogue back, we're going to undue this terrible knot." With this - if it is indeed happening as indicated - and his suit against FLAG, Greg Ginn is going to be spending a lot on lawyers this year...

 

a couple years back, my buddy and i got to open for a Grant Hart solo set at a small local club. we chatted with him for a bit outside between sets. i said something to him like "man you guys gotta get those Husker Du records back on the radar...reissues, remasters...something. i mean, if Dinosaur Jr did it, right?"

i kind of expected, him being Grant Hart and all, to tell me to take a hike and to MYOFB.

instead, he shook his head and went "ah i know, man. we're on it. believe me, we're on it."

 

Greg lost the Black Flag lawsuit.

Details here;
http://consequenceofsound.net/2013/...inn-loses-lawsuit-against-flag-henry-rollins/

 

Ha ha! I like how it's established that not only does Ginn not have exclusive rights to the name, but Henry Rollins is legally still a member of Black Flag. Now maybe the FLAG guys can work something out with Hank and tour as Black Flag (or even better, The Real Black Flag) to really rub it in - they'd be more legit than the noodlefest Ginn is operating these days.

 

Greg should call the new band Jealous Again.

 

This video of Ginn at Coachella last year makes me think he now suffers from a mental illness...

 

From what I know, from interested parties who've seen the contracts, it's the standard mix of dopey musicians signing bad contracts, a record label run without proper accounting, and all the standard stuff you might expect. Plenty of blame to go around. But in the end, for the most part, Ginn's rights to the material are solid. And we're not talking about Fleetwood Mac here. Even the best known of this stuff mostly didn't sell all that much, and there's not enough potential money to get anyone except the artists themselves hot and bothered. No way Ginn is a saint. But the reality is that that mostly the "royalties not received" can be explained under fuzzy cost umbrellas.

 

SST is a train wreck these days. I hope this will lead to Husker Du & Descendants reissues with improved sound quality.

You have to assume that Damaged, Zen Arcade, and Double Nickels have sold well over platinum by this point. Greg needs to pay up.

That and the whole "lives with 80 cats" thing.

 

SST cds tend to be anemic in the bass freqs for some reason. Lots of the Husker Du and Descendents stuff wasn't recorded that well to begin with, but the original vinyl is almost always the way to go.

Ginn seems to be universally reviled these days.

 

...man, say WHAT?? I love Fatso Jetson...one of my favorite bands. They're kings of the desert scene that spawned Kyuss among others. Good stuff if you ask me...IMO.

 

I walked by this very performance. There was MAYBE 2 dozen "fans" up close watching. 100 or so more people laying on the grass to get out of the desert heat/sun.

edit: I was billed as "Greg Ginn & The Royal We". Apparently his band is a couple drum machines.

 

The Black Flag stuff has sold consistently. Rollins says he sends some ex-members of BF money since Ginn won't.