Help a guy who wants to enjoy headphones but can’t

MY QUESTIONS: What are people talking about when they speak of the “soundstage” of various headphones? Is there a way to get ’phones to create a more realistic, outside-the-head soundstage, similar to the way stereo speakers do (short of the Smyth Realizer or some of the ambisonic stuff, with its pitifully few recordings)?

BACKGROUND: A big reason I enjoy home audio is that, with stereo speakers, it can portray a quasi-realistic image of musicians occupying a 3D space before me, similar to what I hear in the concert hall (I’m a classical music guy).

I’ve always wanted to like headphone listening and even own Senn HD598s and Grado SR80s, but the sensation of musicians occupying the space inside my skull is almost the opposite of the kind of realistic experience that a pair of stereo speakers can create. Yet, I read comments on the usual forums that talk about the different qualities of “soundstaging” that headphones create, and I just don’t get it. Granted, I’ve never tried a proper dedicated headphone amp, but I’m skeptical they achieve much in the way of what I’m looking for.

In my quest to enjoy headphones, I even bought an old Carver C-9 sonic holography generator that was supposed to create something close. It didn’t; it just moved the musicians into small clusters around my ears. (Anybody want to by a Carver C-9?!) I got similarly disappointing results listening to various You Tube demos of crossfeed programs like Redline Monitor and Phonitor (though I don’t know whether a You Tube demo gives you the full experience).

Your thoughts would be appreciated.
THANKS!
-Bob

 

That was my experience when I first started. I think there is a physical adjustment period you have to go through to get to the point you can really enjoy a nice set of cans. I've got friends who swear by there big, fairly pricey headphones. Of course they're married and hoping to stay that way or live in apartments. I recently borrowed a set of Sennheiser Momentums from a friend who moved up their line, to use on the headphone out of my fisher. It took a week or so of listening to get comfortable with it but now I find being able to listen to a record over headphones is a very interesting experience and I can enjoy it much more with a good, comfortable set of headphones. Before these I had some inexpensive Audio Technica and was never able to even glimpse at what all the fuss was about. Now I can see it but since I can usually listen for dozens of hours a week with no restraints I just can't imagine spending anymore money on a set.

 

You have answered yourself perfectly. I f...ing hate headphones. Would only get a pair if I were risking eviction.

 

I've been enjoying Audeze LCD-2's for about a month, and have found you get more soundstage as you go up price point, but I think you're right in that anybody who talks about a huge soundstage in headphones surely means "relative to headphones". I've heard Senny HD800's are the soundstage champs, maybe give those a shot.

 

The soundstage created by headphones won't be near as expansive as is created with a proper stereo set up and physical speakers. Mostly due to the speakers orientation with the listener. You can't replicate that with headphones. Or at least no one has been able to provide a product that can, yet. That said, some headphones do a better job than others. The amp is definitely plays a strong role.

That Carver and the Pioneer like it are junk for the purpose of creating a true soundstage. I have heard that some DSP devices get closer, but are still a ways away.

 

Of all the headphones I've tried, the HD800s come the closest to achieving a really good illusion of expansive soundstage. Good amplification helps, but I find that my headphone listening tends to be qualitatively different from my speaker listening. When I use headphones I tend to be looking for an immersive close-listening experience -- or I need to be able to listen closely and tune out a lot of other interruptions.

 

I'm the same way. When I listen to speakers, it's generally vinyl, and gear designed to be "musical vs. analytical". With headphones, I prefer digital and analytical/detail heavy.

 

I'm a sucker for imaging too, but if that's the most important thing in music playback for you, I wouldn't put too much time into a headphone rig.

When I listen to headphones, I become a sucker for texture and tone. It's a different perspective and one that influences my taste in 2 channel loudspeaker playback.

 

Thanks for all the responses, folks. I appreciate it. Much as I thought, I guess there is no real solution short of the Smyth Realizer, if the amazing things I read about it are true. I still can't seem to wrap my mind around what people are referring to when they speak of headphones creating a soundstage of some kind.
THANKS,
-Bob

 

I like the in your head effect of headphones it makes for a different experience. Serious listening, then it's got to be with speakers. It's hard for a headphone to present a sound stage and spatial effects. I take them for what they are, a way to listen to music when everyone else has gone to bed.

 

Headphones are capable of doing a soundstage that is out of your head. Doing that trick requires recordings that are well recorded in a natural and acoustic style microphone setup. Recordings that have proper ambiance in the recording. Classical recordings are exactly like that. So you're in luck.

A software solution is "Out Of Your Head" by Darin Fong Audio
Darin Fong's web site has some demos you can try
Here's an article about the software by InnerFidelity

"Out Of Your Head" is different than the crossfeed style processing done by plugins like Redline. "Out Of Your Head" is more similar to what the Smyth Realizer is doing. The Smyth Realizer is more advanced and creates custom processing designed for your own head and hearing. While the "Out Of Your Head" software relies on generic head and hearing processing. How well the Out Of Your Head processing works for you depends on how well your head and ears matches the generic head used in the processing.

The headphone gear is also important. You need headphones that work well with this sort of processing. And you need a headphone amp that has good soundstage (most headphone amps have literally no soundstage depth). So gear choice is important to get this sort of effect to work well. The Grados are a bad headphone choice for trying to get an out of your head soundstage. The Grados just won't do it well. The Senn HD598 is much more suitable for this. Much better.

It is also possible to get a sort of out of your head soundstage experience from headphones without the extra processing by things like "Out Of Your Head" or the Smyth Realizer. Getting that requres using very good headphones along with an amp that is specifically very good at doing an out of your head style sound. A good DAC that does good soundstage cues also helps. This is the sort of headphone sound that I strive for when choosing headphones and amps and sources. It can be done. But you have to be selective about the gear you choose, and you have to choose gear that specifically enhances this sort of headphone soundstage experience. Just choosing random headphone gear isn't going to do it.

Choosing gear that does this gets a little tricky. I'll have to think about how to explain what works.

 

Curious what amp/headphones work the best in your experience.

 

AKG K1000 ?

 

Headphones are seriously lacking compared to the stereo hi-fi system. People always say how great headphones sound these days but I don't think so. I've heard some 1k+ headphones and they're all a joke compared to a decent 2 channel setup. I don't understand the draw other than convenience.

 

Definitely. I've always wanted to own a pair of these because I love the idea of it.

 

Privacy, that is the main draw and it comes with the sacrifice of Soundstage. My appetite for music and the levels i prefer greatly outpace most others. When it comes down to headphones or nothing headphones win.

I find headphones to be fatiguing. I can listen to speakers for 8 hours without a problem. After about an hour of cans i get pretty antsy.

 

Which headphones and amps have you tried?

 

I only use them when absolutely necessary

 

I am pretty limited in that regard. I had a pair of AKG's back in the 90's but now I am limited to the Bose that retail around $300, I also picked up a pair from some rap guy (possibly Ludacris?) at a radio shack that retailed for $175 and were returned and I got for $50.

I have been giving serious thought about getting a nice tube headphone amp but I just don't need that sonic privacy enough to make that investment.

 

this investment is relatively minor and very satisfying, imo: http://schiit.com/products/vali

 

Thanks again for all the info, everyone.
Ham Sandwich, you've been so generous with your comments that I hate to ask for more. But if you have any specific recommendations for DACs, phone amps, etc. that work well with Out Of Your Head, I'd certainly welcome them. THANKS!
-Bob

 

Thanks, I have been looking at much larger price points.

 

I am also not a fan of 'phones. I have a few nice pairs that I use when fooling around in the studio, but do not like them in the living room. I had a pair of AKG K1000s that I used with the Woo Audio WA5, and they souded great, but still no soundstage to speak of. You can get some great tone and detail though out of a good setup, and if the soundstage isn't important to you it can be a very good way to get great sound for less money and not have to worry about room acoustics, but they're not my thing.

 

Looking into binaural recordings. Those will blow your mind played with good headphones. The short version is they actually mount microphones in the ear canals of a dummy's head, so when played back on headphones all the proper spatial information is there and it sounds truly "3d".

 

Since my house is small and I don't have a lot of money, headphones are my only option (aside from crappy computer speakers) for listening to music. I absolutely adore headphones and I honestly can't imagine how a decent pair of speakers could be a huge improvement. Am I missing out?