Help me build my system to match my "new" B&W Nautilus 804's

If your pre, amp, and source have true balanced circuitry, then the balanced XLR interconnects are the way to go - at least that's what I've been led to believe.
My cdp and integrated are true balanced and the balanced XLRs at least sounded louder than the RCAs I was initially using.

 

I believe XLR adds about 6db gain over single-ended RCAs, presumably due to higher line voltage (speculation on my part) and to help account for very long runs of cable when the situation calls for it.

@Bananas&blow - I share your surprise at looking down to realize you have a nearly 10k system. It sure sneaks up on you over time.

Unless you need HT Bypass, you could give a look at Aric Audio preamps. They're tube based, affordable, and sound great. Some can be configured with MM phono preamps, not sure about MC if you need that.

Do you need a remote control? Or is a knob good enough? If the latter, keep an eye out for a McCormack TLC-1 line drive active/passive preamp. Those could also come with MM phono preamps but those are rare. I had one with the phono preamp and let it go for a steal. Still wish I hadn't let that thing go. I cannot, however, compare it to AR stuff. I did have a Parasound P5 at one point. Honestly, it wasn't for me. In my setup and with my music it sounded too forward for my tastes.

Edit - that TLC-1 has gone for $350 in past deals. It's an unreal bargain at that price. Generally $500-$600 for ones with the phono pre, if/when they come up. Aric Audio stuff doesn't have a remote either, unless you specify one at time of ordering.

 

I hear you but this amp doesn't need any relief. It's pretty beefy and puts out a lot of power and heat. I'm way down on the volume dial compared to the amp in the receiver, as it should be.

 

Haha, may be not your amp, but your speakers. You might already know, I too have speakers with large woofers (7" and 10"), but crossover at 80 Hz bring my enjoyment level up a lot more than simply using my big speakers full range.

 

I realize that some folks, like yourself do this, but it doesn't make that much sense to me. I have an expensive tower speaker that can play down to 40-cycles combined with a totally awesome power amplifier that can put out some power, and we are not going to let these components do the job that they were designed to do?

People have told me the same thing before, but, if my tower speakers can play down to 40-Hz, I will have the sub crossover with a 24dB/octive slope, no higher than at 50-Hz.

And, I am mixing home audio speakers with a commercial subwoofer, which is run by a Crown amplifier with 1,600-Watts of power.

When sub bass is not needed, you don't even realize that there is a subwoofer even in the system. When it is needed, it whll put out some heavy bass.

 

Many times, even with the big speakers, due to placements and room boundaries interaction, the bass output would start to slope down much higher than its bass capabilities. For example, bass output would start sloping down from like 150 Hz, by 3dB or more (sometimes can be more than 10db). No matter how big your speakers woofers are, no matter how low your speakers are rated to go, they can't overcomes the room boundaries interaction problem. No amount eq would help a room induced null either.

This is where subwoofer comes in. Adding a subwoofer or two, when well placed, can fill in those missing bass up to 100 + Hz.

In your case, where you typically run multiple speakers at the same time, you might not get such issue. But for those who use just 2 speakers and in not optimized room, it can be hard to overcome those bass null (typically in bass region higher than speakers' rated bass capabilities) without subwoofer.

We talked about this before. It is called Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR). Google it please?

 

Yeah. Relief for an A21?

It's the AVR that's holding you back....imho.

 

I was thinking more about keeping the a21 in class A mode. By relieving it from playing back deep strong bass notes, it would stay in class A more than having it to play full range.... Imho

 

I don't understand the fascination with tubes, so I'm not the best person to ask. However, (a) there are a number of happy McIntosh/B&W 800-series users on the forum, so one would assume that that could be one possibility, and (b) about the only time I have enjoyed listening to tubes is at Vandersteen demos, and he always used Audio Research tube gear. I notice that someone suggested the LS17. There was a SP17 (includes phono stage) on Audiogon yesterday for $1650 (if I remember correctly), but it has already disappeared. Someone else would have to explain the name/performance/price levels of Audio Research gear for you though.

As the saying goes: it depends! Balanced operation is theoretically better, but whether it translates to practice depends on (a) whether the equipment is truly balanced internally, and (b) how accurate the differential amplifier is which has to combine the wanted signal and eliminate the unwanted noise.

Balanced systems are the norm for studios which use higher signal levels to begin with, but have to run cables hundreds of feet. Noise immunity is then paramount.

In most domestic situations, interlinks are typically short, so noise pick up is not an issue.

One great advantage of balanced cables is that you can get great performance for very little outlay. There are many Pros on this forum who regularly use tons of balanced cables from the likes of Mogami, Belden, Canare, etc. If you want to indulge but still not go crazy, I can highly recommend van den Hul Mic Hybrid:

http://www.vandenhul.com/products/cables/the-mic-hybrid-halogen-free

and Cardas 2X24M (which I am currently running from pre-amp to monoblocks):

Cardas 2X24M Mic Cable

 

Yes I am familiar with SBIR, you are going to get it anytime that you are inside of a room. I did go ahead and google it and read pretty much the same thing on three different sites.

Room boundary effects creates nodes, which can cancel bass out at different specific frequencies. But as you move around the room where that particular node exists, it will no longer exist in a different part of the room.

The boundary effects do not cause bass to roll off below a certain frequency. I assure you that I can operate any of the three stereo pairs individually. This morning, I was only listening to the rear speakers. This afternoon, I was only listening to the LSiM707's (because someone was asking some specific questions about them in a PM).

I can play any pair of speakers and the bass is not rolled off below a certain point.

Room nodes, do not discriminate with which speaker is causing them. If you are running a sub, there will still be room boundary effects coming into play.

The main thing that you try to do is to minimize the node effects at the position where you are sitting. That is why the subwoofer crawl was invented.

Secondly, if you are running an analog system with no digital signal processing, it is literally an impossibility to tune between an speaker and a sub. In home theater, where you are employing DSP, you can tell the system to use bass management and send everything below a specified frequency out the LFE's channel, along with the LFE's.

In analog, there is no way to accomplish this. If you set your sub to roll in at 100-Hz, it will do that. but then your speaker is also playing under 100-Hz also. So you have two or more (three speakers, one sub and two main speakers), that are playing the same musical notes. which is generally frowned on in the audio world (but not by me).

My philosophy is to try something and see how it sounds, if I am pleased with the result, I go with it. I don't pause to worry if I should or should not do something. Anything that I do, is easily undone.

I set my system up in a crazy way, because I like it this way, not because I read about it on the Internet.

Multiple speakers provide for a more immersive listening experience. When I have all three sets of speakers engaged, I can walk around the room anywhere and be in the center of a sound field. I can stand in one spot and turn around and every direction I turn there is music but it sounds different with each position and direction, much the way music sounds in real life.

The more speakers, the less influence that room nodes have overall.

You have found a way to do something on your system that makes everything sound better and that is a terrific thing!

 

Yes, I get your points. In this case, the OP has AVR that can split the frequencies. I am pretty sure he does not walk around when trying to do critical listening.

 

Neither do I, but for me critical listening is only when I'm dialing in different component arrangements, after that, I walk around with an adult beverage in my hand and simply enjoy meself (no, that was not a typo).

 

IMHO the B&W 804's deserves high quality amplification to be able to shine fully.

I started my journey with the 804's combining them with the quite modest but very good NAD S100 and a NAD S200 pre/power amp combination- these two combined with the 804's sounded just great. But when I got the ARC LS17 around five years ago a new soundscape opened up and everything fell in to its right place. Right before I did this upgrade I had for a while been considering to get new speakers to add some spark to the sound system but I got an offer to buy an used LS17 instead, I did go for this and have never regretted doing this- the 804's sounded like a pair of brand new speakers and I then decided to keep them. I remember connecting the LS17 to the sound system the first time- even starting it from cold the sound was jaw dropping and when it got warmed up it sounded even better. After getting the LS17 (and the ARC PH5 at the same time- both units used but in pristine condition) nothing happened until nearly two years ago when I got an used Bryston 4B SST- then once again the sound improved once more but the difference wasn't as big as when I put the LS17 in my sound system.

From all this I learned that the pre amp is a much more important part of the sound system than I had reckoned before taking this step- it's really the 'heart' that brings the best of the system alive. It's all about finding synergy between the different components in the sound system- if you find that balance when matching the different components you'll get richly rewarded soundwise.

 

I think this sums things up nicely...so very true.

 

This post made me smile. It also may cost me $2500 . Does anyone know the difference between the LS-17 and the SP-17. I see a used LS-17 on audiogon for $2500 ish. I see an SP-17 for $2k. The SP comes with a phone and no balanced inputs. The LS-17 does have balanced but no phono. Any other differences of note? I suppose I could be willing to spend $2500 if it's the kind of preamp I won't want to upgrade for approximately 27 years. Which is the time frame in which I plan on upgrading my 804s.

 

I haven't looked into the SP17 but I'm sure you can get a better deal on the LS17. If you are able to stretch the budget to $2,500 then I'd wait for an LS-17SE to pop up. A month ago there was a listing for an LS-17SE for $2,250 that sold. I know because I had contacted the seller with questions.

Otherwise, I'd wait for a better price on an LS-17. Should be less than $2k

 

I agree. I think the LS17 or LS17SE both are better deals than the SP17.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to compare the pricing of the SP17 to the LS17. I don't know about the SP history. I was referring to an LS17 priced at $2,500-ish. An LS-17SE should come in under $2,500 and a non-SE model should be less than that.

This is based on what I was seeing in the least month.

 

OP, what is your playback chain right now? Still using Yamaha AVR? In pure direct mode?

 

I recently picked up a like new Conrad Johnson 17LS2 for $2500 to finish off my all CJ electronics analog system, it came out in that same ~2005 timeframe as the AR. Beautiful preamp, unless you need balanced connections, no feedback, teflon capacitors, 6922 triodes, great switched resistor remote volume control, HT feedthrough, just really nice sounding. Not meant as a recommendation for you, just saying there are great deals out there once you decide what you want to go for (mine retailed for around $5500) ...

Conrad-Johnson Premier 17LS line-stage preamplifier Sam Tellig on the 17LS2

 

Yes. Oppo analogue outs -> Yamaha AVR pre-outs -> A-21 -> 804's.

Thorens TD160 -> Lounge MKIII - > Yam AVR -> A-21 -> 804's.

 

I noticed you say you got the LS17 preamp and amplifier at the same time. How do you know that the preamp was the component that made your jaw drop versus the amp? I'm not doubting you, just trying to understand your experiences.

 

I just realized the seller who sold me the a23 was using Audio Research LS3 (not a Parasound preamp as I previously mentioned) with his a21. He played a song by Simon & Garfunkel and it was excellent! I specifically took a pic of his LS3 and just found the picture again today. I would say you won't go wrong with an Audio Research preamp!

I think he was using a generic cd player that stream to a Parasound DAC. The Parasound DAC then output to the preamp.

 

Either the 5 Ls-17's I'm seeing for sale used are overpriced or the going rate for an LS-17 is $2500 +. Intriguing. I'm curious to weather the extra $1100 over the Rogue SP1 is worth it in terms of sound quality.

 

This is dead on. The A-21 is less bright and more relaxed than the AVR was. Less fatiguing, yet it is more powerful and controls the bass beautifully. It's a great amp. But I want my setup to make these speakers to sing like Gladys Knight. Like the pips. Like Aretha. Like Whitney Houston. And my journey is not yet complete.