Help with MMF 2.1

Back in February, I started to notice a problem with my 200g records, specifically Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me." Lots of sibilance on the vocals. I sent the copy back and got a replacement... the same thing happened.

Pretty soon, I noticed that it was getting worse. I was getting sibilance on other records, no matter who thick. I tried setting up the table again, and consistently had problems.

The last few times I set it up, I started getting a weird problem. Everything, to these inexperienced eyes, looked fine. I'd zero the tone arm, apply the tracking force and attach the anti-skate weight. But when trying to play a record, the arm wouldn't even get near the record; it would just move off to the right, and up.

At this point, I called the dealer from whom it was purchased: John at Red Trumpet. Let me say right now that John is awesome. We talked about it over the phone, I explained the situation, and he gave me some tips. I made sure the table was on a flat surface. I checked to see if the tone arm was secure, that it wasn't moving back and forth. All looked fine. It still moved to the right and up...

At this point, I grabbed a camcorder from work and shot my set-up procedure. I emailed it to John, he looked it over and thought that I was doing everything right.

Here's the Windows Media video:

http://www.CardinalFang.com/video/mmf21.wmv

At my wit's end, I asked John if I could send it back, just in case there was a defect. Without hesitation, he told me to send it back, and he would see what he could do. When he got it, he reset the VTA and made sure everything was up to spec. He played records on it for a week, and deemed it A-OK.

I got it back today, assembled everything, zeroed the tone arm, adjusted the tracking force, applied the anti-skate, and... the same thing happened. The tone arm just pulled to the right, and up.

I'm obviously doing something wrong. I'm following the instructions exactly as they appear in the manual. I just don't understand what the problem is!

Any ideas? I'm dying to play some vinyl...

 

Keith, are you setting VTF with a gauge or are you just using the dial on the arm?
I recommend at least using a Shure gauge to adjust VTF.
Secondly, antiskate is way off. When you drop the arm it should drop straight down, not to the left and not to the right. I would call John and ask him about the positioning of the antiskate weight.
Unfortunately(or fortunately) I own a Rega deck so I'm not much help. Definitely make sure that your cartridge VTF is set as accurately as possible and adjust antiskate after that. Good luck!

 

I watched your video. Could it be the tonearm wiring binding? It'd be funny for the dealer not to have noticed it though.

Just an idea

Edit: hold it.. what happens if you leave the antiskating weight and pulley out? Does it still float upwards and to the right?

If it's so then maybe you're putting a wrong kink in the fishing line somewhere.

 

Wow...it just looks like there's not enough tracking force there! (If your antiskating is set OK but there's not enough tracking force, the arm will do just about what it's doing for you.) If it was working for Rick, then maybe something is set up wrong when you get it to your place...?

Try this if you haven't already: put the counterweight on. Balance the tonearm so it is just barely touching the LP (essentially, zero tracking force), then rotate just the dial to zero. (The dial on the counterweight should turn on its own.) From there you should dial in your tracking force. At least if you ballpark it and it's still doing this, then also check to make sure nothing is binding.

I should have an MMF 2.1 to look at in a couple of days--I'll take a peek and see if I can duplicate your problem or see what might be causing it.

 

You've done the following right?.....

Fit counterweight and balance arm level.

Holding back of counterweight to keep it in place, move the silver part round to line up the marked 0 with the line/marker on the arm.

Turn counterweight 'as one' to the correct tracking weight for the cart.

Then fit the anti skate weight in the correct notch.

If you've done this then it should be ok.

 

i agree it doesn't look like you ever balanced it to zero. also the fact that you balance the arm so quickly i doubt it's truly balanced. i set up a friends and spent over an hour trying to get it balanced. it looked it balanced everytime then it did similar things to what i saw on your video. definitely get the shure gauge $20. you don't have to bother balancing it, just set to correct tracking force. using the shure gauge i got it set up in under half an hour.

 

Thanks for the comments folks. I'll be talking to John about it today. Hopefully he can read this thread and give me some additional comments.

A general response to most of your comments:

I don't have a gauge. I'm simply following the directions in the MMF manual.

Yeah, we've been over that. The anti-skate weight is applied by slipping the loop over the end of the arm. There are three indentions that it fits over... the middle one is where it should go. I've tried all three with no luck. John said that when he had it set up at Red Trumpet, he was able to play a record with the weight applied and without.

I looked it over, and there doesn't seem to be any problem with the wiring.

Same results! Grrrr....

I have done exactly what Tetrack describes.

I was shooting a short video that I had to email to John. No matter how much time I spend on it, I get these results.

What did you do to finally get it balanced properly, or did you ever manage to balance it properly?



I'm sure the issue is with the tracking force. I've never done this stuff before, so I wouldn't doubt that I'm doing something wrong. The gauge is the way to go, eh?

I'll be chatting with John today, so hopefully we can narrow this down more. Unfortunately, it looks as though Red Trumpet is out of the Shure gauge. Anybody else have a good dealer that can get one to me quick?

 

Keith,
I had a similar problem. The instructions in the booklet are a little unclear. Are you aware that the counterweight has two parts? There's a point at which you've gotta turn them separately...

 

It's definitely a big help.

Not only for that extra peace of mind when you set VTF with it (you'll find most counterweights are at best a little bit off), but also because once you've things setup as per manufacturers' instructions you can start adding or subtracting in .1 and .05 gram amounts and arrive at better-sounding sweet spots for your cart.

 

definitely make sure you are using the 2 parts of the counterweight to set to zero. but like i said before everytime i thought it was balanced i could move the arm slightly up or down and it would not be balanced.

 

What happens if you just crank the counterweight closer to the center post? Ignore the markings--if you just turn it like you're increasing the VTF, even if it is too heavy, is the tonearm staying put?

If all else fails: you drive north, I drive south, we meet near Toledo and get it set up on the hood of my truck.

One note about counterweights: sometimes those numbered collars will "slip" when they are supposed to remain stationary. I tend to hold onto the ring AND the counterweight while turning both to "dial in" the VTF.

 

This has to be a problem with the counterweight not being dialed in far enough. If there is any way you can get ahold of a stylus force gauge, you'll be able to tell immediately. I know the Shure model sells for about $20 and is readily available. I just use an old AR gauge that I've had forever and it works like a charm. From what you're describing, I'm almost certain that your tracking force is dangerously low. If the counterweight is back as far as it can go, then you are nowhere near the correct tracking force.

 

HOLD IT. Is your truck balanced?

 

This is what I suspected. I'm making some calls locally to find a gauge today!

UPDATE: Progressive Audio has the Shure gauge in stock, and they're holding it for me.

Too bad I won't have any time to mess with it tonight!

 

Ooops, nope. A couple of the tires need balancing, and the hood has a dent in it. So until Rooody saves up enough to get a new hood, he may have to use the Buick.

 

Wow, sorry to hear of your problems Keith. I assure you I'm a total novice at this stuff too and I remember unpacking my 2.1 and going through the setup.

First thing that caused some frustration was locating a disc which is part of the arm assembly. Turned out to be inserted underneath the Styrofoam packing and my heart skipped a few beats thinking they simply forgot to include it.

Next, I had difficulty understanding the instructions for the counterweight and the right way to thread it. I think my first couple of tries were wrong. I did eventually get it, then dialed in the force (no gage used).

My machine sits on a receiver and I know that is wrong, but it is a dedicated unit for the TT and nothing else. The receiver sits on a wall mounted 'L' shaped counter, which is level.

I exclusively use the arm lever to lower the stylus down as I lack the guts to just drop it down on the vinyl, but the arm feels right.

When I get home later I'll check my counterweight setup and see if it matches yours. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

I know that I am basically echoing what has already been said - but are you sure that after you balance the arm and the counterweight, you are only rotating the dial on the counterweight to zero (ensuring there is no motion of the weight during the zero adjustment, only the dial should be rotating).

Then, when you dial in the proper tracking force, you are rotating the weight in a FORWARD motion (0 to +1.0 then +2.0 grams as opposed 0 to -2.0 grams) to so that the weight moves the dial (as opposed to the zero adjustment where the dial is rotated only, and not the weight).

I only stress this because I recently replaced my linear tracking table and kinda messed that step up (I hadn't done it in about 15 years), and my manual really didn't explain it properly. Also because it seems to me that if you were anywhere "in the ballpark" when you balanced the tonearm (even if you weren't overly critical), after the dialing in the tracking force, the arm shouldn't float away. It should be that much heavier than it was when you balanced it by eyeball.

 

Yeah, this is exactly what I've been doing. I'lll double check when I'm in front of the table though...

Well, I now have the Shure tracking force gauge in hand, so MAYBE when I get home I'll have an hour to mess around with it. If not, I'll probably do it tomorrow night.

If any of you Central Ohio folks haven't been to Progressive Audio (like me), you should check them out. Not only did they have the gauge in stock, but I chatted with the owner (I think) for a little while about turntables. They know their stuff and are really helpful.

 

Ok, I have a little time before band practice, so I just did a super quick test with my new Shure gauge.

It seems as though my problem is zeroing the tone arm. The way I was doing it before, I got it so the tone arm is parallel to the platter, balanced there between the point of pulling down and pulling upwards. This always seemed wrong to me, to be honest (I didn't want to taint the discussion here, in case there was something else going on). When I do it this way, it's about the half-way point for screwing in the weight.. there's a point where you feel the weight hitting a tighter place on the thread. That's about where I stopped... maybe even JUST before that point.

So today I threw on a trashed LP and used the gauge on top of that. I set it up the way I always did; I "zeroed" the arm, set the force according to the numbers on the weight, then I checked the gauge. Not even registering! Definetly not enough force.

I decided to try it "backwards." I screwed the weight in more, until I was in the ball park of registering on the gauge. Then I adjusted the tracking force numbers to the ballpark of 1.75 g (the recommended force for my stylus). The I checked the gauge, and working the weight and the tracking force until the gauge read even. The force position on the table is reading 1.9g.

I threw on Norah Jones' "Come Away With Me," the LP that drove me on this mission. It sounds great. And I haven't even applied the anti-skate weight yet. What drives me crazy about this is that when I set the force to read zero and check the tone arm, it is NOT parallel to the platter. It's way below the platter!

So now I need to figure out how I'm supposed to zero the tonearm. I guess there's something going on that I don't understand still...

 

<slips on flame-retardant vest>

I don't think you need to zero the arm anymore, now that you've got the gauge. Zeroing the arm is for when your only reference is the numbered counterweight ring, and therefore you must 'zero' it every time to make sure the scale is more-or-less in place (by 'scale' I mean the plastic numbered ring on the 'weight).

What I'm saying is: set the gauge on the platter, lower the arm onto the gauge (set for whichever VTF you're aiming at) and see what happens. Does the gauge 'bottom out'? Unscrew the weight a bit, try again.

Does the gauge not even notice? Screw the weight in a bit, try again. Eventually you should arrive at the proper reading (both ends of the scale line up in the mirror, on the Shure gauge).

That's it. No need to pay attention to the numbered ring on the c/w anymore from now on, you've got the scale.

 

Sounds like you'd got zeroing down on your first tries, at least from your description.

 

You could try it this way -

With the arm in the tonearm rest, fit the counterweight onto the back of the arm.

Take the arm out of the rest, the arm should shoot straight up.

Now holding the fingerlift with your right hand, turn the counterweight forward a turn, then let go of the fingerlift and observe the arm each time you do this.

Keep doing this until the arm begins to float down, lessening the turn as it begins doing this.

Continue moving the counterweight forward in increments until it balances out level.

When you have it level, lift the arm back up as far as it goes and then let it go. It should gradually float back down to the level position.

With this done the arm is in a level plane.

This is how I do mine.

 

just do this, and you should have it right.

 

I just re-read the entire thread, and the problem finally dawned on me. I realized that my basic understanding of the operation was somewhat "lacking."

I had misunderstood the directions in the manual. I zeroed the tone arm, moved only the VTF part of the weight to zero, double checked my tonearm, then moved ONLY the VTF part of the weight to 17.5. Not the whole weight, but just the numbers. (I must have understood the directions when I first got the table, because I played records without a problem for months).

Of course, if I understood the physics of the matter, it would have been obvious that this wasn't enough tracking force!

By the time I re-read Damián's last post, it was clear: with a gauge, it doesn't matter that I zero the arm. That's why my last try was in the ballpark, because I was working off the Shure gauge instead of what the numbers read.

While re-reading the thread, I noticed that some of you were actually telling me what the problem was, and since I didn't understand the procedure completely, it went over my head.

I am relieved, and a little embarrassed. So it goes...



At least I know how to dial it in correctly now. Even though it wasn't perfect, I did enjoy some records last night. I got to listen to my Norah LPs, my RL-mastered LZ's "Houses of the Holy," a Porky's cut of "IV," and an 1840 Broadway copy of Yes' "Fragile."

It's so nice to have the vinyl back on the stereo!

THANK YOU, EVERYBODY!!

 

The MMF 2.1 manual is a little unclear at explaining all this, as I said. I was about ready to throw mine through the window until I had a similar epiphany...

Enjoy!