How important is a phono stage for sound quality?

Hi

I am using a musical Fidelity XLPs phono stage partnered with a XLP PSU. Its the only phono stage i have ever used. I am intrigued to know if changing it will improve the sound of my system. I have considered the Lounge MM phono stage and the Graham Slee SE. I have no way of auditioning any equipment and given my MF equipment sells for for quite high prices on ebay should i even bother to change? Change for change sake is after all a waste of money!

 

The phono stage greatly affects the final sound of your vinyl listening experience. I recently went from a Pro-Ject Tube Box S to a Sutherland KC Vibe, big improvement. Much more detail, better bass, soundstage etc.

 

I would be surprised if the Lounge or Graham Slee SE would improve on XLP and power supply. I think having a proper linear power supply greatly enhances the sound. I suggest trying the NVA (Nene Valley Audio) Phono 1 or 2 which can be purchased on Ebay. They are fantastic value and think will be a significant upgrade especially the 2 which is up with £1K++ stages for half the price. There is a 30 day money back guarantee and I know Richard the maker will honour that if you are disappointed. Would also recommend his cables which are very neutral sounding.

 

Phono stages make a huge difference. Besides speakers, I would say that my phono stage made the biggest difference in sound in my system.

 

Many stages if not all use OP
Amps.
Its only my personal opinion , and this was pointed out to me by Hubert Jan
That they work in class B and tend to dominate sound quality.
A very reasonable alternative to
This situation is a class A
Unit
Basically 2 transistors per channel
With a feed back loop for RIAA
Correction.
Priced around£30 .
As I say my personal opinion is that these sound vastly superior to mainstream products.
They are sold by Monacor , A huge European manufacturer of microphones, cables amplifiers
Etc
For stsge work and studio work.
Usually SPR-6 marketed by Thomman.
On
amazon/EBay .
Also called IMG STAGE LINE,
And
SPR 24A Stereo Turntable PreAmp.
At this price its worth an audition

 

Hugely important!

 

I don't have very much experience, but will offer what I know. I'd been using the phono stage built into my Parasound P5. It sounded pretty good, but maybe a little thin and the gain was lower than my other source (Sony XA5400ES via balanced cables), so I took a chance on a Pro-Ject Tube Box S. Being hybrid tube, it does sound warmer, and the gain is roughly equivalent to the Sony. So, I don't have to adjust the volume very much (except of course between different discs, depending upon how they're mastered).

But, for $450, I have to say it doesn't sound that much better than the Parasound. Sometimes, I think it sounds too warm and mushy. Maybe I'll switch back to the P5 for a while and try to decide which I like better.

 

I agree with Tom, the phono stage can have a huge difference in sound. There are a few online retailers which will let you try and move up if you don't like. Good luck!!

 

Thorensman alludes to how I feel, maybe I am jaded but there's too much compromise of phono pre's up to a certain dollar amount, maybe $1000 or so.

What I have seen is the super budget ones tend to trade blows with proper working vintage receiver phono pre's, higher up the chain is definely better but quickly becomes a lot of sidegrading.

I remember reading this somewhere but in the silver face stereo days, if the phono section wasn't up to snuff it was hard to be taken seriously.

A dedicated phono preamp is definitely necessary in my book however, it doesn't need to be super expensive to sound great and beware of overpriced/under engineered units.

 

I totally agree. I consider the phono stage to be the heart in the vinyl rig, I haven't always had that point of view but everything changed a couple of years ago when I had the chance to try the ARC PH5 in my sound system. The PH5 stayed after that test...

 

It makes a big difference- one of the most dramatic upgrades in my system was the phono stage.

 

It's a critical part of the chain. It's really foolish to spend very much on a table or cart without having a phono that can deliver their benefits. It's almost like having a 1,000 motor connected to a transmission with one gear if you don't get right with your phono.

 

The compromise is the power supply. Cheap and not so cheap stages coming with plug top ones, often switch mode which dump all sorts of mains pollution.

 

Hello,
the answer to a question "how important is some piece of equipment within the signal path" is always, "very important".
Because, even when there are very well known specifications and engineering rules, still some company can "mess it up" and do it all wrong.
Even if it can be done perfectly right for a few bucks, still the expensive "high end" device can be of poor engineering.

First of all, a phono stage is an equalizing amp, where the RIAA curve (the poles) is perfectly specified. How to implement that curve is also very well known. If a stage does this right, it's good as it can be.
Second, a stage for MM carts must meet some impedance specs: 47kOhm and around 200pF, for all MM carts require 47kOhm and capacitance from around 300 to 600pF. With the phono cable impedance of around 100pF, it just hits the specs. It's maybe more convenient, if the input capacitance could be adjusted... However, if the impedance figure of the phono stage meets the requirements of the cart, then it's good as it can be.
Next, the noise and hum figure. It should be low enough, so that all of the noise and hum of the phono stage is less than that of a silent record groove, so that the phono stage does not introduce any more noise to the signal. It cannot be better than that.
Of course, that also means, that the ripple, hum or buzzes from the power supply are well enough filtered and attentuated by the phono stage and it's power supply, no matter what kind of power supply it is.
Output impedance of the line outputs of the phono stage should be no more than 1kOhm.

One would expect, that cheaper phono stages of different makes and brands would not adhere to these specs and requirements very well, but all would deviate in a different way. Say, the one cheap model "A" would have too less bass and shrill treble, or a wrong input impedance, while the other cheapo model "B" would have an OK RIAA curve, but would introduce all kinds of noise, or the like.

On the other hand, all the very good and very expensive phono stages (where the manufacturers care a lot about true fidelity) should all sound very very similar, if not indicernable.

Well, I have tried out some reasonably priced phono stages, even one phono input of a computer audio interface. I played a test record with pink noise, and recorded it into the PC, and analyzed the frequency response.
It was no exactly the same, but very very similar. Differences were a few dBs at the low or top end, and less in the mid range.
Consequently, while listening by ear to various music records, there was no real difference in sound.

Contrary to the expectation, that different "cheapos" would sound really different.

So, my experience and advice is: Go with a reasonably priced phono stage from a "no-nonsens" manufacturer. Make sure, that the impedance of the input of the phono stage (with the cable capacitance added) meets the specs of your cart.
That's it!
Spend the saved money on the stylus of your cart. If it is replacable (as for most MM carts), a stylus of higher quality (better cutting or grind, better precision of orientation when bonding to the cantilever, tighter quality control), most surely makes much more sense in obtaining higher fidelity.

That said, my aim is the fidelity of my equipment. I want to hear what's really on the record, even if that doesn't sound so good, because a record was mastered with little bass or shrill trebles.
I am not going for a "better" sound because that is totally up to personal taste.
If I would like to make a record sound more bassy, for instance, I would use an equalizer.

 

Hey, TM, would you venture a guess as to whether one of these little guys might outperform the phono stage of something like my old Pioneer SX-737 receiver? They look like fun little guys, but maybe this particular system (the Pioneer, Music Hall MMF-2.2 with upgraded stylus and Wharfedale Diamond 10.1) wouldn't reveal a difference.

 

Phono stages made a very significant, very positive difference in my system. I played with an inexpensive passive step up first, then a much more expensive one, then a 'real' phono stage and that's what I've settled on. It really opened up the sound, improved the bass and made the entire listening experience a better one.

 

Very

 

Hello,

that's exactly the words I was looking for.
I started out with a "real" phono stage, then with a less expensive one, then with an inexpensive passive one, and that's what I've settled on. It really opended up the sound stage, improved the bass and made the entire listening expericene a better one.

My experience is exactly yours, with the one difference, I was going from the expensives to the cheapos. That's why you should trust me.

 

I

I have just re installed the Monacor after using an upmarket (Audio synthesis) phono stage .
I just could not take anymore
It in a tin box its cheap , yet I cannot
Find anything thst comes close.
Its a very simple circuit. Which is all a phono stage us really.
I would say yes, it would be better.
How old is your amp /receiver ?
Some of the 60,s 70,s kit was all class A in phono section.
Thst means low distortion.

 

I think the vintage is '74-76. I'll have to see if I can find anything out. I certainly wouldn't be out much were it not better. (It might force me to just get another table. ) Many thanks!

 

I think i will take a punt on the Monacor. I cant understand how it will sound better than what i have but for 30 pounds it will be a good experiment!!

 

I have a factory fitted phono stage(it did not come pre-installed at purchase point) in my Arcam Delta 290....I have not tried the mc option,but the mm stage sounds every bit as good as some of the "stand alone"phono stages I have auditioned/owned.

 

Tried replacing stock tubes with something else?

Swapped mine with new stock Gold Lions. Significant difference. Amazing bass, no mushiness. Cheers

 

I'm currently using the Pro-Ject Phono Box, which cost me about £40. It's the only thing I've ever tried, but am itching to upgrade.

Does anyone think a new pre-amp costing £200 or so would make much difference?

 

More important than pre, power amps or speakers
Not as important as the Turntable, then arm, then Cart.