Just watched this interesting YouTube clip - the video quality is pretty awful, I would apologize but I had nothing to do with it Granted these Harbeth’s aren’t the most electrically sensitive speakers around, and they’re in a pretty huge space with (what appear to be) very high ceilings, but some of the amplifier output peaks during the playback of the first track were astonishing to me. I suppose I’ve always been partial to the idea of powerful amplifiers but… damn! If you don’t care about the rambling intro and just want to see the sound demo skip to 3:40 Would’ve been interesting to me if they had recorded what sort of dB’s were achieved from a typical listening distance to give some context to those numbers on the amps. It didn’t sound like they were shouting to converse with one another as the music played. On the flip side… equally astounding how little power the strings needed during the playback of the second piece of music which begins around 10:25.
How much amplifier power do you really need? This subject...maybe is not too scientific, because the EAR and the music are very different for person to person. IMHO a receiver form old school, 30-40W, is enough to make a reasonable audition. Some guys says the button from the power amplifier at 10 o'clock is enough (including myself)... The REAL power for home auditions is necessary for low sounds of course, were the ear is not as sensitive as for medium and high frequencies. For tube amps, a 5-8W power is enough (high SPL for enclosures...93dB) and for SS amps, as I said, a 30-40W (SPL for enclosures...86dB) is OK. Anyway, too many variants of the problem...
Sure... the video presumably isn't meant to be scientific... more like a casual demonstration. I was mostly interested in the presence and thoughts of Alan Shaw, lead designer at Harbeth... so far from being some random clown on the internet, here's someone with an expert level of knowledge. I only posted for entertainment or discussion purposes
This last year I went from 32 class AB tube watts to 1oo watt Ncore 500 based amp. While the tubes were sweet the solid state is much more dynamic, the tube amp would run out of "gas" on orchestral crescendos while the Ncore has loads of reserve. Hard to have too much power (or money), LM211ia vs Marantz 30 (apples/oranges) playing through Klipsch Cornwall II.
You don't need much in the right conditions. I have a vintage Pioneer SX-626 in my garage (2o wpc) attached to big 'ol Marantz Imperials. They can easily handle a block party.
As a generalisation I agree! And I'm fascinated that you've perceived the difference more power has made even with speakers as sensitive as yours?! And in the past I've owned very powerful amplifiers and now that I'm just dipping my toes back into audio after some years away I was revisiting the concept of owning a "big" amp, thinking perhaps I'd just been seduced by audiophile overkill thinking in the past... this demonstration, while certainly not intended to be scientific seems to suggest that, if given the available resource (of power) the speakers will use it...
Fair enough... the vintage approach was different though. Low powered amplifiers matched to (typically) very sensitive speakers? I don't know much about the Marantz speakers you've mentioned but I'm assuming they'd have specifications typical of their vintage? Modern speakers of course represent far more complex loads to the driving amplifier. And as the video appears to illustrate, it also depends on what you're playing, how loud and "how much" the speakers are doing with the incoming wattage?
I was surprised at the amount of difference in power draw between those two pieces of music. Really illustrates the advantage of having enough power in reserve to handle wide dynamic swings if what you typically listen to covers that wide of a dynamic range.
I was equally surprised... the difference was vast! And my take away from the video is the same as yours.
I have a Yamaha M4 that's been recapped and I hit the clipping red led indicators every once in a while with my Salk V3's in a large room. The Yamaha puts out 120w/ch into 8 ohms.
Haha, thanks. They certainly took all those watts in their stride! I notice you're a fan. I'd love to own a pair of these sometime... not the cheapest speakers around though, but I suppose that's the cost of hand-crafting from the ground up in the UK right?
The difference could be easily perceived when playing music with large swings between quiet and loud passages. With the LM I would set the volume at reasonable levels in the quiet sections and be forced to reach for the volume control when the Fortissimo arrived with audible distortion. No problem with the Marantz.
I guess but really it is the price for a certain sound more than anything. To equal or better their sound quality what options are there and how much do they cost, for example. Good deals out there on used ones if interested.
My whole system is designed around both the finesse of tube preamplification and the high quality and reserve capability of a great power amplifier and hey, I’m using some fairly sensitive speakers. It really works for me.
Just for fun, this is the SPL I’m getting with Harbeth 30 speakers from 8 feet in a 12 x 15 room with an amp rated 45 watts and no subwoofers. I want to try a beefier amp but haven’t been able to comprehend what I gain from it. Still open to it, though. Image link
I hope we can all have a good natured chuckle that the music selection for that video on You Tube from the artist's page (Pan Sonic, Laptev Sea) has an overlay photo of a tube amp.
The only amps that can power my Carver Amazing Silver MK4 (83 dB efficiency, 750W) to the levels I like to listen to on occasion are Innersound ESL 800 and iPower 750. Forte Model 3 (200W/400W) no, Denon POA 2800 (200W/350W) no, NAD 2700 no, Kyocera A-910 no. With the Innersounds, I get scared to turn the volume up louder and that is craaaanking it, little doubt Im at >110 dB SPL and Ive yet to hear any clipping or distortion. Product Review "The Sound I tested the ESL-800 in a two-channel setup, with a McCormack Transport and DAC, BAT VK-5i Tube Preamplifier, Carver Amazing Ribbon Speakers, and Nordost Cables (XLR balanced between preamp and power amp). My Carver Amazings (ribbon speakers) are very demanding speakers, just like ESLs. I threw some very difficult material at it, including my amp-buster CD, Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" on Telarc. But, I think this CD is an amp-buster no more, as I could detect no clipping regardless of the volume, and I had it cranked. Usually, when an amplifier has a problem with this CD, the bass in the drum thuds does not go as deep as it should. Well, it went deep alright. No subwoofer was necessary to take up the slack, because there wasn't any slack."
We can! That is pretty amusing P.S - I'm not advocating for anything... as I said before, I just shared the video for discussion purposes.
I went from 2 wpc, to 16 wpc, to 200 wpc to 400 wpc and it just keeps getting better But it is all about that First Watt! Then all the others to follow.
Totally understood! Decware has a video on his site showing (or attempting to show through a video) the performance of a 20-watt amplifier playing a demanding Dean Peer piece through his DNA speakers that struck me as a counterpoint of sorts to Alan Shaw's demo. Neither are particularly revelatory other than good sound can come from few or many watts if you own the right stuff. I know when the cannons go off on my Telarc 1812 CD (I do not have the album, the groove gyrations are tortuous) my gear certainly gets taxed as anyone's would. Fortunately, most of us do not play at SPLs requiring 500 watts continuous, but I am sure there are plenty of speakers out there that can handle that kind of power beyond their specs.
I don't think the intention of the video was to advocate for the use of high powered amplification - did you watch it in it's entirety? Alan Shaw's comments - particularly toward the end of the video - are a lot more nuanced and measured than prescribing a "one size fits all" approach. That said - when I have used high powered amplifiers my experiences have been similar to what @Ntotrar described upthread... including a noticeable improvement in the ease with which transients are handled and a fuller, livelier performance at lower to medium levels. So it's not just about max SPL and driving the Allen bolts off of your speakers? But when you do turn it up, even at what I would consider "loud" in my own room... which is an average SPL of high 70's/low 80 dB's, with peaks around 10 or so dB's higher than that - it's about having a large enough power reserve available to comfortably encompass almost any piece of music without compression. And the first demo track is of particular interest to me because I do listen to a lot of well mastered electronica. I mean - if the meters on the amps in the video are remotely accurate there was (what I would consider to be) a ton on power going into those speakers and as I said in my first post they didn't appear to be shouting over the music as they spoke to one another, so it probably wasn't a whole lot louder than the sorts of levels we're talking about here . The video by itself isn't "proof" of anything... as always there are many variables but it raises some interesting questions for me is all.
With solid state amps you really need to avoid "surprise" clipping like the plague. I was listening to a classical symphony last week at about 90 dB eight feet from my own Harbeth Monitor 30s with my wife sitting next to me. Probably using 20-50 watts at the most. Suddenly that same orchestra hit a crescendo. I would estimate my Harbeths were running 200-300 watts continuous for about 30 seconds before I could grab the volume knob and shut it down! Easily 110 dB steady with higher peaks! Holy crap! It was the loudest music I ever heard and I am an ex-rock musician! It was so loud I almost crapped my pants! My amps supply 500 watts RMS per speaker even though the Harbeths are rated at 100 watts RMS continuous---I LIKE HEADROOM FOR PEAKS. And guess what? The speakers didn't even blink. NO DAMAGE! And that my friends is exactly why I advocate LOTS of clean power on tap. You just never know what might happen. And many speakers might just survive as long as the amp doesn't clip. A smaller setup using those same speakers blew a Harbeth woofer at just over 100 watts. That's when I replaced all the power with units four times heftier. Lesson learned.
